http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/diet.fit ... index.html
It annoys me when people are talking about how good organic food is. They absolutely have no idea what they are dealing with.
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At my uni (Turku, Finland) one of the researchers studying taste and aroma of strawberries nearly got lynched by organic food supporters as she had to say (after years of studies) that organicly farmed strawberries taste just the same as the normal ones.
In fact the difference between organic and 'normal' food is what kind of unwanted stuff you can find in the food. Organic food contain usually much higher amounts of fungi and yeasts with some additional toxins produced by these and is also of poorer quality while normal food contain wide variety of industrial pollutants. Also the yield of the conventionally cultivated food is higher.
What is actually very amusing to me is the belief that every compound labeled in the ingredient list is a chemical (and as all chemicals are - harmful). Or as here in Finland (IIRC also in rest of the Europe) we have E-codes and some people actually believe that higher the number more deletorious the compound is (like E300 - ascorbic acid (C vit) or E967 - Xylitol, seem like deadly poisons to these people).
In fact the difference between organic and 'normal' food is what kind of unwanted stuff you can find in the food. Organic food contain usually much higher amounts of fungi and yeasts with some additional toxins produced by these and is also of poorer quality while normal food contain wide variety of industrial pollutants. Also the yield of the conventionally cultivated food is higher.
What is actually very amusing to me is the belief that every compound labeled in the ingredient list is a chemical (and as all chemicals are - harmful). Or as here in Finland (IIRC also in rest of the Europe) we have E-codes and some people actually believe that higher the number more deletorious the compound is (like E300 - ascorbic acid (C vit) or E967 - Xylitol, seem like deadly poisons to these people).
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They should make them put their money where their mouth is. They claim that organic strawberries taste better so buy a cartoon of each and make the farmers pay £1m if they can't pick the organic ones.Wanderer wrote:At my uni (Turku, Finland) one of the researchers studying taste and aroma of strawberries nearly got lynched by organic food supporters as she had to say (after years of studies) that organicly farmed strawberries taste just the same as the normal ones.
I'd love to see how many people would be willing to take that bet.
To be honest I think the best solution is to give out free organic peanut butter and let natural selection take its course.
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You have to wonder how many people would just be jumping up and down in anticipation if "Fungicide free" peanuts were offered. And, of course, how many wouldn't make it to their next birthday.
It's a reality show all of its own - Survivor:Peanuts
It's a reality show all of its own - Survivor:Peanuts
TI - Coming in 2011 - Promise!
"Everyone has to wear clothes, and if you don't, you get arrested!" - Mr. T
"Everyone has to wear clothes, and if you don't, you get arrested!" - Mr. T
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I'll tell you one thing though, organic stuff can taste better. Cucumbers are a good example.
It's not the fact that is organic, but that the non-organic stuff isn't grown in the ground, but in greenhouses with lots of water and less earth.
And the organic meat is generally quite a lot better, since the rules demand that the animals have had more movement. Therefore, more taste, less fat/water.
And I know most of the chemicals aren't unhealthy, but I can't have sugar or sweeteners, so most of it is quite bad for me anyways.
It's not the fact that is organic, but that the non-organic stuff isn't grown in the ground, but in greenhouses with lots of water and less earth.
And the organic meat is generally quite a lot better, since the rules demand that the animals have had more movement. Therefore, more taste, less fat/water.
And I know most of the chemicals aren't unhealthy, but I can't have sugar or sweeteners, so most of it is quite bad for me anyways.
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Its often (unfortunately) so that the effect of harvesting time and cultivar are immensely greater then the effect of cultivation method.
Any way those sensory analysis that i was talking about were made so that the person who analyses the sample has no way of identifiyng the origin of the sample he/she is analysing. This often causes the normal and organic products to be unseparatable in analysis at least by any statistical methods with reasonable number of test subjects.
Human senses can be easily fooled by the mind. So the organic cucumber may teste better as you know it to be organic cucumber. I have found organic cucumber to be more.. well.. soggy than the conventional ones with even more bland taste than usual. Again i might be biased in my assesment.
Like the proven example of constanly filling soup bowl where test subjects eat from two different soup bowls and then estimate how much they have eaten. Trick is the other bowl is slowly being refilled from the bottom. Result is that people still think they have eaten equal amounts despite the other bowl contained nearly 2x as much soup.
And no, idea of organic food does not annoy me. What annoys me are the people who advertise organic foods. I agree that organic foods are in some aspects of better quality than the conventional ones but i do not agree on the blind advertisement of the organic food products being better than the conventional ones.
Any way those sensory analysis that i was talking about were made so that the person who analyses the sample has no way of identifiyng the origin of the sample he/she is analysing. This often causes the normal and organic products to be unseparatable in analysis at least by any statistical methods with reasonable number of test subjects.
Human senses can be easily fooled by the mind. So the organic cucumber may teste better as you know it to be organic cucumber. I have found organic cucumber to be more.. well.. soggy than the conventional ones with even more bland taste than usual. Again i might be biased in my assesment.
Like the proven example of constanly filling soup bowl where test subjects eat from two different soup bowls and then estimate how much they have eaten. Trick is the other bowl is slowly being refilled from the bottom. Result is that people still think they have eaten equal amounts despite the other bowl contained nearly 2x as much soup.
And no, idea of organic food does not annoy me. What annoys me are the people who advertise organic foods. I agree that organic foods are in some aspects of better quality than the conventional ones but i do not agree on the blind advertisement of the organic food products being better than the conventional ones.
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@Kasperl : None of that has anything to do with the organicness of the food though. You can use pesticides and still enjoy food that is just as tasty simply by growing it in the same way.
Organic food is not any better for you. It's not better for the environment (in fact in many ways it's worse). It costs more and worst of all people who support organic food tend to stand in the way of various other things like GMOs which are the best way we currently have to end world hunger.
On top of all that in some cases organic food actually contains higher levels of pesticides than conventionally farmed food. Cause what most people don't realise is that organic != free of pesticides. All organic means is that the pesticides that might have been used have to come from a natural source rather than a chemical factory. And any chemist will tell you that this means that the pesticide is actually more likely to contain other chemicals that do who knows what to you.
What's more Seeing as how these chemicals aren't as effective as something from ICI or DuPont they simply use more of the stuff.
Think it's a still a good idea to eat something that hasn't been sprayed with fungicides?
Organic food annoys me because it's a hoax being perpetrated on the general public.pyro-manic wrote:Why does the idea of organic food annoy you?
Organic food is not any better for you. It's not better for the environment (in fact in many ways it's worse). It costs more and worst of all people who support organic food tend to stand in the way of various other things like GMOs which are the best way we currently have to end world hunger.
On top of all that in some cases organic food actually contains higher levels of pesticides than conventionally farmed food. Cause what most people don't realise is that organic != free of pesticides. All organic means is that the pesticides that might have been used have to come from a natural source rather than a chemical factory. And any chemist will tell you that this means that the pesticide is actually more likely to contain other chemicals that do who knows what to you.
What's more Seeing as how these chemicals aren't as effective as something from ICI or DuPont they simply use more of the stuff.
Aflatoxins
andIn the 1960 more than 100,000 young turkeys on poultry farms in England died in the course of a few months from an apparently new disease that was termed "Turkey X disease" . It was soon found that the difficulty was not limited to turkeys . Ducklings and young pheasants were also affected and heavy mortality was experienced .
A careful survey of the early outbreaks showed that they were all associated with feeds, namely Brazilian peanut meal . An intensive investigation of the suspect peanut meal was undertaken and it was quickly found that this peanut meal was highly toxic to poultry and ducklings with symptoms typical of Turkey X disease .
Speculations made during 1960 regarding the nature of the toxin suggested that it might be of fungal origin. In fact, the toxin-producing fungus was identified as Aspergillus flavus (1961) and the toxin was given the name Aflatoxin by virtue of its origin (A.flavis--> Afla).
Humans are exposed to aflatoxins by consuming foods contaminated with products of fungal growth . Such exposure is difficult to avoid because fungal growth in foods is not easy to prevent . Even though heavily contaminated food supplies are not permitted in the market place in developed countries, concern still remains for the possible adverse effects resulting from long-term exposure to low levels of aflatoxins in the food supply .
Evidence of acute aflatoxicosis in humans has been reported from many parts of the world , namely the Third World Countries, like Taiwan, Ouganda, India, and many others . The syndrome is characterized by vomiting, abdominal pain, pulmonary edema, convulsions, coma, and death with cerebral edema and fatty involvment of the liver , kidneys , and heart.
Conditions increasing the likelihood of acute aflatoxicosis in humans include limited availability of food, environmental conditions that favor fungal development in crops and commodities, and lack of regulatory systems for aflatoxin monitoring and control.
Because aflatoxins, especially aflatoxin B1, are potent carcinogens in some animals, there is interest in the effects of long-term exposure to low levels of these important mycotoxins on humans . In 1988, the IARC placed aflatoxin B1 on the list of human carcinogens. This is supported by a number of epidemiological studies done in Asia and Africa that have demonstrated a positive association between dietary aflatoxins and Liver Cell Cancer (LCC) . Additionally , the expression of aflatoxin-related diseases in humans may be influenced by factors such as age, sex, nutritional status, and/or concurrent exposure to other causative agents such as viral hepatitis (HBV) or parasite infestation.]
Think it's a still a good idea to eat something that hasn't been sprayed with fungicides?
Last edited by karajorma on Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Yes that is true.
I was trying to counter the quite common announcement that organic food tastes always better than the conventional food. IMHO if people want to eat organic food then they better be prepared for consequences. IIRC numbers of food poisonings have steadily increased while organic food has become more common, coincidence? I think not.
EDIT: We are still discovering new toxins produced by fungi so though the aflatoxin is perhaps the most renown of these it is not the only one. Some are even know to accumulate in the food chain quite like PCBs. So there might be long term health effects from eating the organic (=more likely to contain fungi) food.
I was trying to counter the quite common announcement that organic food tastes always better than the conventional food. IMHO if people want to eat organic food then they better be prepared for consequences. IIRC numbers of food poisonings have steadily increased while organic food has become more common, coincidence? I think not.
EDIT: We are still discovering new toxins produced by fungi so though the aflatoxin is perhaps the most renown of these it is not the only one. Some are even know to accumulate in the food chain quite like PCBs. So there might be long term health effects from eating the organic (=more likely to contain fungi) food.
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E-coli poisonings due to food not being washed properly after having been grown in cow manure is a very good example of why it's not a coincidence.
I remember reading somewhere that cases of E-coli from people who had eaten organic vegetables had actually overtaken poisonings from people eating meat.
And I do agree about the tastes better thing. If you conducted some double blind taste tests between organic food and conventionally grown food which costs the same amount I bet you any money that the conventional food would win because it would all be from the supermarket's grade A "Taste the difference, M&S food" end of the scale.
I remember reading somewhere that cases of E-coli from people who had eaten organic vegetables had actually overtaken poisonings from people eating meat.
And I do agree about the tastes better thing. If you conducted some double blind taste tests between organic food and conventionally grown food which costs the same amount I bet you any money that the conventional food would win because it would all be from the supermarket's grade A "Taste the difference, M&S food" end of the scale.
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Well, problem is, non-organic veggies over here are all hydroculture. As I said, anything grown in the ground properly and for a decnt amount of time is good by me, but the current supermarket stuff ehre is just too watery for my tastes.
As for not washing veggies properly, that's just bad preperation of food.
As for not washing veggies properly, that's just bad preperation of food.
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Well, that's your opinion karajorma, and you're entitled to it of course, but I disagree. I also disagree on the GMO thing, but that's another issue which I won't go into now. Personally, I'd rather eat something that hasn't been sprayed with anything (and yes, the source of the stuff I get at home is entirely free of pesticides, of any description. It gets planted, it grows, it gets dug up/picked, and delivered to the door) than eat factory-farmed stuff from a supermarket.
Any fool can pull a trigger...
As the madmen play on words
And make us all dance to their song
To the tune of starving millions
To make a better kind of gun...
As the madmen play on words
And make us all dance to their song
To the tune of starving millions
To make a better kind of gun...