I first posted this on HLP, but mnyeagh. I reposted it here so that it wouldn't be buried under the millions of threads that HLP churns out.


First things first, the Shivans are a hivemind (stereotypical excuse for Shivan single mindedness).

My theory involves a 'cataclysm' which separated the Shivan fleets a long time ago (probably the destruction of several Jump Nodes simultaneously). After the cataclysm, the Shivans decided to nuke all other species because they did not want another cataclysm or something. Fortunately, the Shivans had 'backup hives' which come into motion when a fleet (or fleets) get separated from DaBrain.

The Shivans that came from Ross 128 and attacked the Terrans and Vasudans in FS1 were from a different fleet from the one in FS2. They were probably an expeditionary force which got lost after the disaster that separated the Shivans. Their fleet was very small so they decided that they had to create a sub-hive on board the Lucifer. This is why they needed to shield it and protect it so much.

It is to be noted that they are ultimately the exact same Shivans as the Shivans in FS2, they were just separated for a long time (who said that they hated these theories which say the Shivans are different? Mefustae?).

The Sathanes in FS2 were part of a larger fleet, perhaps one of the biggest Shivan fleets separated from the main one. Because the FS2 Shivans had such a large fleet already, they did not need to shield their capital ships like the Lucifer. The Comm Nodes in the second SOC loop were being used to try to communicate other Shivan fleets far away so the FS2 Shivans could join back up with them. The supernova of Capella was used as the gravitational field for the use of a super-jump node so that the FS2 Shivans could join up with some other Shivan fleet (alternatively it could be used as a beacon so the other Shivan fleets could find it, but it seems a stretch that the Shivans would blow up a star just for a signal).

This does not rule out another species the Shivans are at war with, perhaps those who caused the 'cataclysm' in the first place by using a type of super weapon to weaken the Shivans into individual fleets. Or something. Blegh.



Well, anyway, what do you (SG people) think of it?

Nice use of the forum graphics, at least. Still, are there SG people left anymore?

I'm an SG person!
I thought it was pretty good. But I still think that the Lucifer fleet posed more of a threat.

Sure, the Sathanas fleet was bigger, and the Sathanas class had... possibly more power than the Lucifer class, but the Sathanas wasn't in-f#####g-vulnerable now was it?

If teh Vasudan Hos hadn't found out the subspacemagiggy the Lucifer would have burned us! It would have burned us all!!!

Also Sathanas V Lucifer -> Very long battle with Lucifer winning.

Well my personal theory about beams piercing 'sheath' shields is that the sheath shield is basically an extremely strong shield that regenerates extremely quickly, and only a constant barrage of fire can pierce this shield. The damage needed is probably many, many Harbinger bombs exploding on the Lucifer all at once for about a minute constantly without break. Even a pause for a second or two will allow the shield to recharge to half or even full strength. All damage must be constant, with damage being delivered every split second.

The only way this could be done in the FS universe devised is the use of beam weapons. Beam weapons deliver a whole load of damage constantly for as long as the beam is fired at the targeted ship (in this case a Lucifer class destroyer). The beam will be able to pierce the shield after only a few seconds on the shield. Because the beam is always firing upon the shield, the Lucifer does not have enough time to recharge its shield. Thus, the beam will burst through, vomiting all its plasma on the Lucifer.

The Lucifer, however, has enough hit points to survive a Sathanas preliminary salvo (4 BFReds). Once the Lucifer is aware of the danger, it would be able to flee. However, the Sathanas has a much higher top velocity and probably would be able to catch the Lucifer. The Lucifer would probably damage the Sathanas a lot, but the Sathanas would probably, ultimately, win.

Oh, and make sure takashi doesn't find SG, or there will be no more SG people left.

Snail wrote:Well my personal theory about beams piercing 'sheath' shields is that the sheath shield is basically an extremely strong shield that regenerates extremely quickly, and only a constant barrage of fire can pierce this shield. The damage needed is probably many, many Harbinger bombs exploding on the Lucifer all at once for about a minute constantly without break. Even a pause for a second or two will allow the shield to recharge to half or even full strength. All damage must be constant, with damage being delivered every split second.

The only way this could be done in the FS universe devised is the use of beam weapons. Beam weapons deliver a whole load of damage constantly for as long as the beam is fired at the targeted ship (in this case a Lucifer class destroyer). The beam will be able to pierce the shield after only a few seconds on the shield. Because the beam is always firing upon the shield, the Lucifer does not have enough time to recharge its shield. Thus, the beam will burst through.
The Sathanas would probably, ultimately, win.

Oh how I do love this arguement.

The way the Lucifers' Shield system supposedly works is by taking the energy that is meant to be transferred to the hull and 'throwing' it into subspace (hence why it doesn't work in subspace). That is why beam weapons would not affect it (because a beam weapon is a transfer of pure light energy as a weapon) because the pure energy that IS the weapon would just be fired into subspace. But then you could see the flaw in my theory and simply say "Then why didn't the GTA simply use some kind of Hypervelocity slug-firing (non energy) weapon to make a friggin' big hole in it's hull? Because the kinetic energy transferred when it hit the hull would be dissipated and spewed into subspace.

Even if that theory is not the correct one then the plain and simple truth still prevails. Game Physics. In this game Invulnerability = Invulnerability. There is no special weapon, there is no certain angle, there is no trickety-trick-trick way to destroy it in realspace because when it boils down to it the FRED invulnerability rule is the boss.

ghhyrd wrote: The way the Lucifers' Shield system supposedly works is by taking the energy that is meant to be transferred to the hull and 'throwing' it into subspace (hence why it doesn't work in subspace). That is why beam weapons would not affect it (because a beam weapon is a transfer of pure light energy as a weapon) because the pure energy that IS the weapon would just be fired into subspace. But then you could see the flaw in my theory and simply say "Then why didn't the GTA simply use some kind of Hypervelocity slug-firing (non energy) weapon to make a friggin' big hole in it's hull? Because the kinetic energy transferred when it hit the hull would be dissipated and spewed into subspace.

That's not the way the Lucifer's shield works. It is essentially a very powerful shield with a high recharge rate, etc. etc. The reason it doesn't work in subspace is just like every other shield.

FreeSpace Reference Bible wrote: We’ve been able to get a prototype shield system working under normal conditions. However when we simulate jump phenomena there’s no way to keep the power levels high enough.

The same reason that the Lucifer's shields don't work. The Lucifer probably just absorbs the damage into its shield and gets on with it. That's what I think at least.

ghhyrd wrote: Even if that theory is not the correct one then the plain and simple truth still prevails. Game Physics. In this game Invulnerability = Invulnerability. There is no special weapon, there is no certain angle, there is no trickety-trick-trick way to destroy it in realspace because when it boils down to it the FRED invulnerability rule is the boss.

It doesn't matter about the invulnerable flag. If I was doing it, I obviously wouldn't use the invulnerable flag. I would just get the shielded model of the Lucifer, add "no pierce shields" to all the beams and let her go.

Alternatively, if that doesn't work, I'd use the invulnerable flag and just have something fire a beam, then have a message from someone saying that the Lucy's shields are destroyed and then turn off invulnerable.

Snail wrote:

ghhyrd wrote: The way the Lucifers' Shield system supposedly works is by taking the energy that is meant to be transferred to the hull and 'throwing' it into subspace (hence why it doesn't work in subspace). That is why beam weapons would not affect it (because a beam weapon is a transfer of pure light energy as a weapon) because the pure energy that IS the weapon would just be fired into subspace. But then you could see the flaw in my theory and simply say "Then why didn't the GTA simply use some kind of Hypervelocity slug-firing (non energy) weapon to make a friggin' big hole in it's hull? Because the kinetic energy transferred when it hit the hull would be dissipated and spewed into subspace.

That's not the way the Lucifer's shield works. It is essentially a very powerful shield with a high recharge rate, etc. etc. The reason it doesn't work in subspace is just like every other shield.

So where in the game (The absolutely 100% canon resource) does it say 'It is essentially a very powerful shield with a high recharge rate'?

Snail wrote:

ghhyrd wrote: Even if that theory is not the correct one then the plain and simple truth still prevails. Game Physics. In this game Invulnerability = Invulnerability. There is no special weapon, there is no certain angle, there is no trickety-trick-trick way to destroy it in realspace because when it boils down to it the FRED invulnerability rule is the boss.

It doesn't matter about the invulnerable flag. If I was doing it, I obviously wouldn't use the invulnerable flag. I would just get the shielded model of the Lucifer, add "no pierce shields" to all the beams and let her go.


Alternatively, if that doesn't work, I'd use the invulnerable flag and just have something fire a beam, then have a message from someone saying that the Lucy's shields are destroyed and then turn off invulnerable.

But you just can't (not in impossibility) do that, it is just taking a factor of the game and changing it from what the designers wanted. If you are going to do that, then you might as well just make Orions invulnerable, give the Colosuss the speed of a Pegasus and while you are at it make the turret on an Ursa a giant kitten-gun with the power to atomise Sathanas fleets and rearrange the particles into 20 kilometre-long pickles with the ears of the Lesser spotted trout, after tampering with the pre-designed laws of life by giving it ears.

I could do that if I wanted to.

It's not what the designers wanted that I'm doing here. Any Shivan theory is just a guess at what [V] actually wanted. This is just a working theory. Just that. It's a theory that works. It's not a try at what [V] actually wanted.

It doesn't say anywhere that the Lucy's shield is basically a powerful shield w/ high recharge rate, but that's what I believe, and if I wanted to make a campaign, then that's what I'd classify it as.

If you were going to go all out canon on everything, then you shouldn't be making a campaign at all on the thesis that [V] would probably not have done that is the dreaded Eff Ess Three.

If I was making a campaign based on this theory, then I would do what I wanted on it. I wouldn't consult [V] and Adam Pletcher on everything he had lined up for Eff Ess Three. I would do it all for myself, by myself (with a team, of course ).

What's I'm saying here is, I could make Orions invulnerable, give the Colossus the speed of a Pegasus while I was at it and make the turret on an Ursa a giant kitten-gun with the power to atomize Sathanas fleets and rearrange the particles of 20 kilometer-long pikcles with the ears of the lesser spotted trout after tampering with the pre designed laws of life by giving it ears.

There's nothing stopping me from doing so. It's my (hypothetical) campaign and I would do whatever I wanted on it.

I've always thought we needed a better theory to explain why the FS1 Shivans were so much weaker technologically than the FS2 Shivans. This is... something at least. Dunno if I agree, but it does have something to it.

Snail wrote:I could do that if I wanted to.

It's not what the designers wanted that I'm doing here. Any Shivan theory is just a guess at what [V] actually wanted. This is just a working theory. Just that. It's a theory that works. It's not a try at what [V] actually wanted.

It doesn't say anywhere that the Lucy's shield is basically a powerful shield w/ high recharge rate, but that's what I believe, and if I wanted to make a campaign, then that's what I'd classify it as.

If you were going to go all out canon on everything, then you shouldn't be making a campaign at all on the thesis that [V] would probably not have done that is the dreaded Eff Ess Three.

If I was making a campaign based on this theory, then I would do what I wanted on it. I wouldn't consult [V] and Adam Pletcher on everything he had lined up for Eff Ess Three. I would do it all for myself, by myself (with a team, of course ).

What's I'm saying here is, I could make Orions invulnerable, give the Colossus the speed of a Pegasus while I was at it and make the turret on an Ursa a giant kitten-gun with the power to atomize Sathanas fleets and rearrange the particles of 20 kilometer-long pikcles with the ears of the lesser spotted trout after tampering with the pre designed laws of life by giving it ears.

There's nothing stopping me from doing so. It's my (hypothetical) campaign and I would do whatever I wanted on it.

Snail wrote:It's not what the designers wanted that I'm doing here. Any Shivan theory is just a guess at what [V] actually wanted. This is just a working theory. Just that. It's a theory that works. It's not a try at what [V] actually wanted.

That is not what I meant.

Snail wrote: What's I'm saying here is, I could make Orions invulnerable, give the Colossus the speed of a Pegasus while I was at it and make the turret on an Ursa a giant kitten-gun with the power to atomize Sathanas fleets and rearrange the particles into 20 kilometer-long pikcles with the ears of the lesser spotted trout after tampering with the pre designed laws of life by giving it ears.

What I meant was you could not change this stuff because it is within the sanctioned [V] Storyline. Not that it is impossible. What I mean is that there was no Command briefing in which Admiral Petrarch said; "The turret on the old Ursa Bomber has been reconfigured into a giant kitten-gun with the power to atomize Sathanas fleets and rearrange the particles into 20 kilometer-long pikcles with the ears of the lesser spotted trout after tampering with the pre designed laws of life by giving it ears.

In other news the GTVA Colossus destroyed the NTD repulse, giving it the oddly Pegasus-like ability to travel at 75 metres per second."

Or there was no point in the game were the Captain of the Repulse entered a conversation that went something like this; "Captain-ONOZ!!! WE R ON COLLISHUN CORSE!!111 U STUPID, ADMIRAL!!!"
"Admiral Koth- s### I DID WAT!!?? O lolz we invulnerbul lol"

Unless of course you did this;

Admiral Petrarch II- "The Ursa bomber has been brought back into production after the GTVA thieveries of Shivan Kitten-gun technology"

and

Admiral Petrarch II- "The Colossus was rebuilt today 50 years after it's destruction by the SJ Sathanas. It spent the day fleeing at the speed of a Pegasus from an annoyingly invulnerable 50 year-old NTD Repulse."

But we do not yet know enough about the way the Lucifer works to change it, but that does not mean that in your campaign you could not simply have;

Admiral Petrarch II- "Due to insufficient lulz, we have successfully engineered a new type of beam weapon, that is very simillar to it's past counterparts, but has the abillity to pierce the shields on a Lucifer-Class destroyer due to massive energy overload/subspacial disruption patterns/your mum/*insert campaign plot device here*. This weapon is currently being configured to and mounted on every large GTVA vessel..."

I seriously doubt if anyone at V can recall what the plan was for FS3 anyway.
From what I can tell V lost interest in the FS ommunity after the VBB then VWBB went down
I regret missing those early days when the Dev team where involved, esoecially when browsing places like bungie.net etc

But still they would likely have it filed away somewhere, collecting dust.

*Gets robbery gear*

Lots of people change things in the FS continuity for their campaign. It's not unheard of. And I can do it.

DEREK SMRAT WOULD SAY:
##I'M##DOING##IT##AND##YOU##CAN'T##DO##ANYTHING##ABOUT ##IT!!!!

Snail wrote:Lots of people change things in the FS continuity for their campaign.

Were these campaigns in direct involvment with the main storyline and actual player character?

Snail wrote:It's not unheard of. And I can do it.

Can't. Can't can't can't can't can't.