aldo wrote:Except those organisms can survive transferance to another host location and function independently of that location - if you move a frog from pond A to pond B, it doesn't die. We can't move a foetus, though, from womb A to womb B.

A hypothetical here: what if it were possible to do exactly what you just proposed? What if we could routinely transfer a developing fetus from one woman's uterus to another, without any major risks for either women or fetus? Or, looking even further ahead, what if it were possible to create an "artificial uterus," something that would allow the fetus develop outside of any human body at all? Would you support the right of a woman to have an abortion under those circumstances? In fact, wouldn't the entire concept of abortion be absolutely obsolete? Medical science is making huge bounds year after year, and the way I see it, it's only a matter of time before we're able to accomplish something like this. When that day comes, will your opinions on abortion change? Will there be any need for abortion, when the same thing can be accomplished while allowing the fetus to fully develop unimpeded?

Thirdly, it should be pretty evident what is 'wrong with driving the human race to exinction'. Throught human society and evolution, no one person has had the power to drive humanity extinct. A person with this type of negative trait, is bad for the aforementioned mutual defense. They are likely megalomaniacs, selfish, doing stuff like stealing or hoarding in needy times, etc. This is bad for the group, and drives down both that 'bad' individuals' social acceptance (and hence mutual protection) and their sexual attraction (and hence capacity to reproduce). So those traits are likely to be bred out when genetic, and killed off when environmental, during early human development.

Believe it or not, I've come across websites online which feature groups of people who actually want the human race to become extinct. They claim that, because of the "massive" harm we caused this planet, we are no better than a plague, and should be eradicated so that the Earth's ecosystem can return to a healthier state. I know it really doesn't have much to do with your overall point, but it does go to show you that all sorts of traits do exist, including those that are idiotic beyond all belief.

A hypothetical here: what if it were possible to do exactly what you just proposed? What if we could routinely transfer a developing fetus from one woman's uterus to another, without any major risks for either women or fetus? Or, looking even further ahead, what if it were possible to create an "artificial uterus," something that would allow the fetus develop outside of any human body at all? Would you support the right of a woman to have an abortion under those circumstances? In fact, wouldn't the entire concept of abortion be absolutely obsolete? Medical science is making huge bounds year after year, and the way I see it, it's only a matter of time before we're able to accomplish something like this. When that day comes, will your opinions on abortion change? Will there be any need for abortion, when the same thing can be accomplished while allowing the fetus to fully develop unimpeded?

Will my opinion on abortion change - no. Because I don't believe the foetus (at the time period of legal abortion) is a person (i.e. conscious), and thus aborting it is not wrong as 'nothing' is lost (in the sense that a human person is conscious, has the capacity of self-awareness and identity, and hence death constitutes a loss of said self-awareness).

If it was possible to move a foetus, then it would be another option available. My position is pro-choice - that means increasing choice, not reducing it, and I believe that we should have choices for people to make, and not close off those choices on any basis that is not both secular and (most importantly) scientifically proven. And I don't believe, as you know, that either of those is true for abortion.

So my support of making the option of abortion available is not based on it being the only option of it's type, but my weighing of the individual pros and cons, and in particular my reading of the scientifically known consequences/results.

Believe it or not, I've come across websites online which feature groups of people who actually want the human race to become extinct. They claim that, because of the "massive" harm we caused this planet, we are no better than a plague, and should be eradicated so that the Earth's ecosystem can return to a healthier state. I know it really doesn't have much to do with your overall point, but it does go to show you that all sorts of traits do exist, including those that are idiotic beyond all belief.

Of course they do; that's why we have criminals (not this is an advocate for some sort of legal eugenics, as I believe societal factors are more important, but I think society has taken over from genes - after a sense- in our 'evolution'), but these positions are minority for a reason. Certainly I'm not suggesting human morality is homogenous, but that certain good/bad traits are shared across the vast majority - i.e. dominant.

I'd agree with aldo. It's about choices. It's about people making up their own mind for whats best for them. (Since an embryo / fetus is incapable of making up thier own mind since they don't have one...)

Also I stand by the fact that a women's body is her own, the embryo / fetus is her own and her responsibility. Offer options sure, but don't condemn those who don't think a supposed moral highground is the best course of action.

I know several young friends who've had children of their own, and they arn't even 20 yet. They decided what was best for them, and decided to have the baby. One or two of which, don't know who the father is... But I fully respect their decisions and support them 100%. As I would if they'd had an abortion. It was their own choice though, not pressured upon them. I sometimes feel sad for the children that they may never know who their father is, but I am content in that at least they are lucky to have decent support systems among the mother's and their friends. Which is something that cannot always be said to be true. =/