I'm all for stem cell research, but not when you harvest them from embryos. Just like I'm all for organ transplants, but not if surgeons went around cutting them out of random people on the street. There's a significant moral difference.

Except that no viable embryos would actually be harmed; they're not performing abortions to harvest the stem cells, nor would they.

The stem cells in question, would be taken from embryos in fertility clinics that would otherwise just be destroyed anyhow. Why not let 'em do some good instead of just throwing them out?

Or at least, that's how I understood it.

(damnit, i DO need to register... )

We don't remove organs from people who haven't signed organ donor cards, even if they're desperately needed. Why should we harvest stem cells from embryos who haven't signed stem cell donor cards?

Mad Bomber wrote:Except that no viable embryos would actually be harmed; they're not performing abortions to harvest the stem cells, nor would they.

The stem cells in question, would be taken from embryos in fertility clinics that would otherwise just be destroyed anyhow. Why not let 'em do some good instead of just throwing them out?

That's the crux of the issue though, the line between the two is so terribly thin and the slope so terribly slippery that it's easy to become a monster and not realize it. The only safe course is stay well away.

im immoral and sadistic and proud of it, but anywayz:

Goober5000 wrote:Why should we harvest stem cells from embryos who haven't signed stem cell donor cards?

A: they cant.
B: im not sure, but i dont think they kill em. do they? correct me if im wrong...
C: if your reason for not taking embryos and using them is purely religious, id like to stop you guys from bringing that up now, a religion debate invariably ends up in a flamewar. besides, as long as theres no consiousness, IMO theres no 'human life'. for all we know, a strawberry has 'consiousness', it just doesnt have the same kind we do. but ill stop derailing the subject...

Goober5000 wrote:I'm all for stem cell research, but not when you harvest them from embryos. Just like I'm all for organ transplants, but not if surgeons went around cutting them out of random people on the street. There's a significant moral difference.

I view it as the same moral issue as opt-out organ donation. We're not talking about killing babies for stem cells here, we're talking about taking stem cells from babies who are already, for whatever reason, aborted (or wihtin the womb IIRC).

Of course, there's another option - cloning embryos (or more precisely eggs which develop to a suitable stage) for this purpose. In certain ways it can be considered less moral, in others more. There's a ban on this in the US as well, I believe.

One issue which Christopher Reeve himself pointed out (in 2002) was the religious objection. Not to go much further on this, but Jehovas Witnesses are against blood transfusions - would a ban on blood transfusion be any different in principle to a ban on stem cell research based on (for example) Catholicism?

Oops. That's me, BTW.

lol, so many people, forgetting to sign in!!!

BTW, im going to go off-topic for half a second (im asking this in a few places) who was it who made the GTCa Warlock? i think it was by AN aldo, but i think there are like 3 of you... so, who made it?

Grimloq wrote:A: they cant.

Which is precisely why we shouldn't do it.

B: im not sure, but i dont think they kill em. do they? correct me if im wrong...

Sometimes they do... sometimes they clone them and sometimes, as said previously, they get the cells from embryos that are already dead.

C: if your reason for not taking embryos and using them is purely religious, id like to stop you guys from bringing that up now

Then don't bring it up yourself. I'm approaching this discussion from a strictly libertarian perspective. If you want to debate the religious angle, I'm game, but I doubt many others are.

Uh wait, so taking the cells from aborted or defective or whatever you want to call them embyros is wrong now?

If your car breaks down or is totalled, is it immoral to recycle it at a junk yard, having the metal go into something useful?

I really wouldn't mind them taking them from naturally terminated embryos, but I have a big problem if they take them from aborted babies. You run a big risk of women getting preganant and them getting an abortion to make money from harvesting the stem cells.

Not only is it murder, but it's premeditated on the part of the "mother".

You're analogy is flawed anyway. We're talking about babies being killed for the conveience of the mother not taking a rusted out Chevy to the scrapyard.

Well, each woman has a natural instinct to protect a baby when she is pregnant, I don't see what you predict happening. Besides, after about 2 abortions, it is often dangerous to continue them. A Doctor who is forced between forcing a woman to have a child and risking the life of 2 people MUST choose according to his oath and Do No Harm.

While I am in favour of abortion as an option, and feel that men, considering their contribtuion in in the process, should be keeping their mouths shut and letting women decide for themselves, it does fall oddly in contradiction with the Hipprocratic Oath, as it is, if you consider a foetus a life, obviously doing.

So, the question of abortion truly rests on 'Is a Foetus Alive?'

Can it exist independant of external support/is it mobile? No
Does it react to outside stimulus? Yes at later stages.
Can it communicate in a limited way? Yes at a later stage.
Is it capable of reasoning? No

A Baby is, in the strictest sense, a parasite, growing to maturity inside a host. The simple fact that the parasite is gestated inside it's own host, and fertilised by the hosts partner makes this a sticky subject, but it is physically connected to it's host, is dependant on draining nutrients from it, and is seperately aware of it's host at a late stage of development.

Personally, I'd say early pregnancies only, for safety reasons as much as any other, and a national legal limit on 2 abortions per person, also for safety reasons and also to stop exploitation of that system. Doctors can tell if Abortions have taken place before.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents

"Conveinence" is a rather dennotative word, don't you think?

As for selling them, I can't vouch to have any personal knowledge of how the system works, but it'd stand to be logical that it would be a system of donation to science. When you put that little sticker on your drivers' license that says "Yes, you can harvest my organs in the even that I die, yet they still function well." I'm quite sure it's a *donation* and not your family selling them to hospitals... it'd stand to reason the embryo/fetus research system would be similar.

Aside from that, you're bringing this into a topic of abortion, which is a whole different subject.

liberator wrote:I really wouldn't mind them taking them from naturally terminated embryos, but I have a big problem if they take them from aborted babies. You run a big risk of women getting preganant and them getting an abortion to make money from harvesting the stem cells.

Not only is it murder, but it's premeditated on the part of the "mother".

You're analogy is flawed anyway. We're talking about babies being killed for the conveience of the mother not taking a rusted out Chevy to the scrapyard.

To be frank - you're talking out your arse using delibertively emotive, unfair and bigoted language based upon poorly conceived stereotypes with no factual evidence.

I can only presume you have some strong religious conviction for this belief. whilst you are welcome to hold it, I don't want people to suffer & die because you maintain an irrational bias against the people that don't share your opinions.

a) it's not murder - that's your opinion
b) it's not done for murder- that's your opinion
c) women who have abortions are not heartless trailer trash who hate all life and enjoy baby killing (espeically for MONEY!!!)- that's your opinion

In other words, if you have a valid factual & scientific argument that can prove illegality of either abortion or stem cell use, then show it. But don't come up spouting this deliberately insulting shite to try and fool us into thinking you have any basis for your argument, because it won't wash.

NB: Grimloq; I made the Warlock. There's only one aldo - me - I just forget to sign in a lot. Albeit the Warlock is a bit of a shite model.......