The Closed DS thread on HLP
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:10 pm
This is kinda moot now that it's been reopened, but I was f#####g pissed when it was closed. My PMs to Steak.
Black Wolf wrote on 07-18-2004 01:38 AM:
I'm not going to pretend this will make a difference, but I'd like to log an official protest that you locked the main DS thread. You're an aussie, I'm an Aussie, so I'm not going to bullshit about "my right to free speech" or whatever. I'm just going to say what I feel - this is something that needs to be openly discussed - we can't let the opinions of you and the admins (the people who will be moderating the thread) be the opinions of the Freespace community - they don't match up on this issue, and I feel that by locking the open thread you've curtailed my ability to get my beliefs across. Coddling to this guy will make no difference to his already demonstrated opinions about fans and detractors, nor about his opinions of HLP as a whole. He's made up his mind. If neccesary, I'll link him to Sectorgame or nodewars, or PM him to get my message across. Others will too. All you'll be doing with a moderated threat is hiding the negative comments from yourselves.
I've always liked the way this place has been run - the admins, yourself especially, are fair, open, and reasonably generous with what gets allowed to stay open. But this time, well, I'm sorry, but I can't stay quiet on this. It's far, far too important.
- BW
Setekh wrote on 07-17-2004 04:47 PM:
I totally agree; I don't think you should be quiet either. And I also am quite certain, like you, that he's made up his mind. However, what people - well-intentioned, intelligent people - have not understood about these actions that the staff have taken is that this is buying time. We all have forever and a day to flame Smart. But once that happens, all possibility for fruitful discussion is gone. The possibility of this, however slim, ought to be preserved for at least a short time. Once we march over that line, we cannot turn back. We have to see what little positive light can be shed on this first before we shut the door and lock in the darkness.
In this case, staying quiet is a temporary thing that is a necessary stage if anything good is to come of this. Even if this whole endeavour fails, remember, we may still yet voice our rage at this. However, the inverse is not true. I appreciate your disagreement, BW, and do not think that you have not made a difference. Your trust on this valued and I will not rest until I have set things straight with you.
By the way, you won't PM him, because you can't. He's shut them off.
Black Wolf wrote on 07-18-2004 02:06 AM:
This guy's registered on at least a half dozen forums I've visited in the past few days - I could get his attention, but ultimately, that's peripheral.
To be honest, I don't know if you understand the type of guy you're dealing with here. I freely admit that I didn't know him from any forums prior to this issue - I hadn't even heard his name prior to this issue. But the first thing I did when this isuue came up was to research this guy - his past work, and his past activities. Do you realize that you're dealing with the guy atthe centre of the longest running flamewar in the history of the internet? This guy is a dog with a bone, and as we've all seen, he's not a particularly nice dog. He doesn;t care about what we want to see in a game, he doesn't even care about making a good game - he wants to make a game that will make money. Sure, all developers want to do that. But tell me that you honestly believe Valve could have slapped together Half Life 2 in six months and made money, despite producing a crappy game, simply on the strength of the Half Life name?
That said, I do see where you're coming from on the issue of how we'll have all the time in the world later on to flame this guy, but look at the figures we have now - we've broken the record for people online so many times in the past few days it's no longer funny. Those numbers aren't just numbers - they're eyes, eyes which are focused on us now. And they're people, our peers in the gaming community, and their opinion of us is also going to be formed now. Not in the three or six months when this has been confirmed, and this guy has become the public face of Freespaces future. As it stands, we're making the concessions - your thread has the distinct potential of stopping open discussion between members of a communtiy that has existed for almost seven years because of the opinions of an arrogant, self absorbed man whos name most of us had barely heard until three days ago. Our actions here are going to set the scene for any future interactions we may have with him, and tacit acceptance of his rudeness and bad manners is not the backdrop I want to see, and it's certainly not the one I want to see projected to the world at large.
- BW
Setekh wrote on 07-17-2004 05:17 PM:
I told you not to believe the idea that you wouldn't make a difference. Go, voice yourself, but know what is at stake and what can't be taken back. I have confidence in you to say what you think needs to be said, and stand up for what deserves it. Me, I'm going to sleep.
Black Wolf wrote on 07-18-2004 05:37 PM:
I've got a two hour advantage . I'm not going to say anything more until and unless he posts something I have strong reservations about - you've closed the thread, I realize that you can't just go back on that at this point, so I'm not going to keep quoting his old stuff into the new one and restart the discussion on those particular grounds. I'm not going to bait him, I'm not going to make personal attacks on him, and I'm not going to dredge up his past follies. In short, I'm going to do what I can to validate your confidence. I honestly do hope he doesn't keep posting the way he has been, and so I wont need to post at all, but to be honest, given what we've seen over the last few days, the way the new thread is going, and what I know about him from other peoples experiences...well, I'm holding out with all that much hope...
- BW
I dunno if I got the thread reopened or not, but I respect Steak for doing it. I'm just pissed off I sent that last one - I kinda painted myself into a corner and said I'd be good, so I can;t go in and get pissed off at all the morons in the new thread who're coddling to this guy. Asking for features, making suggestions - it's a bunch of newbs making it look like the entire community is accepting this guy. One twit even welcomed him to the community. Is this really the kind of arsehole we want to welcome into our community? And all this after we've spent the last three days stirring up anti Smart sentiment and linking to HLP. We're going to come across as a bunch of two faced arseholes who're refusing to stand up and tell this guy to f### off, while at the same time trying to incite the entire internet against him behind his back. I really, really don't like a lot of HLP right now.
Black Wolf wrote on 07-18-2004 01:38 AM:
I'm not going to pretend this will make a difference, but I'd like to log an official protest that you locked the main DS thread. You're an aussie, I'm an Aussie, so I'm not going to bullshit about "my right to free speech" or whatever. I'm just going to say what I feel - this is something that needs to be openly discussed - we can't let the opinions of you and the admins (the people who will be moderating the thread) be the opinions of the Freespace community - they don't match up on this issue, and I feel that by locking the open thread you've curtailed my ability to get my beliefs across. Coddling to this guy will make no difference to his already demonstrated opinions about fans and detractors, nor about his opinions of HLP as a whole. He's made up his mind. If neccesary, I'll link him to Sectorgame or nodewars, or PM him to get my message across. Others will too. All you'll be doing with a moderated threat is hiding the negative comments from yourselves.
I've always liked the way this place has been run - the admins, yourself especially, are fair, open, and reasonably generous with what gets allowed to stay open. But this time, well, I'm sorry, but I can't stay quiet on this. It's far, far too important.
- BW
Setekh wrote on 07-17-2004 04:47 PM:
I totally agree; I don't think you should be quiet either. And I also am quite certain, like you, that he's made up his mind. However, what people - well-intentioned, intelligent people - have not understood about these actions that the staff have taken is that this is buying time. We all have forever and a day to flame Smart. But once that happens, all possibility for fruitful discussion is gone. The possibility of this, however slim, ought to be preserved for at least a short time. Once we march over that line, we cannot turn back. We have to see what little positive light can be shed on this first before we shut the door and lock in the darkness.
In this case, staying quiet is a temporary thing that is a necessary stage if anything good is to come of this. Even if this whole endeavour fails, remember, we may still yet voice our rage at this. However, the inverse is not true. I appreciate your disagreement, BW, and do not think that you have not made a difference. Your trust on this valued and I will not rest until I have set things straight with you.
By the way, you won't PM him, because you can't. He's shut them off.
Black Wolf wrote on 07-18-2004 02:06 AM:
This guy's registered on at least a half dozen forums I've visited in the past few days - I could get his attention, but ultimately, that's peripheral.
To be honest, I don't know if you understand the type of guy you're dealing with here. I freely admit that I didn't know him from any forums prior to this issue - I hadn't even heard his name prior to this issue. But the first thing I did when this isuue came up was to research this guy - his past work, and his past activities. Do you realize that you're dealing with the guy atthe centre of the longest running flamewar in the history of the internet? This guy is a dog with a bone, and as we've all seen, he's not a particularly nice dog. He doesn;t care about what we want to see in a game, he doesn't even care about making a good game - he wants to make a game that will make money. Sure, all developers want to do that. But tell me that you honestly believe Valve could have slapped together Half Life 2 in six months and made money, despite producing a crappy game, simply on the strength of the Half Life name?
That said, I do see where you're coming from on the issue of how we'll have all the time in the world later on to flame this guy, but look at the figures we have now - we've broken the record for people online so many times in the past few days it's no longer funny. Those numbers aren't just numbers - they're eyes, eyes which are focused on us now. And they're people, our peers in the gaming community, and their opinion of us is also going to be formed now. Not in the three or six months when this has been confirmed, and this guy has become the public face of Freespaces future. As it stands, we're making the concessions - your thread has the distinct potential of stopping open discussion between members of a communtiy that has existed for almost seven years because of the opinions of an arrogant, self absorbed man whos name most of us had barely heard until three days ago. Our actions here are going to set the scene for any future interactions we may have with him, and tacit acceptance of his rudeness and bad manners is not the backdrop I want to see, and it's certainly not the one I want to see projected to the world at large.
- BW
Setekh wrote on 07-17-2004 05:17 PM:
I told you not to believe the idea that you wouldn't make a difference. Go, voice yourself, but know what is at stake and what can't be taken back. I have confidence in you to say what you think needs to be said, and stand up for what deserves it. Me, I'm going to sleep.
Black Wolf wrote on 07-18-2004 05:37 PM:
I've got a two hour advantage . I'm not going to say anything more until and unless he posts something I have strong reservations about - you've closed the thread, I realize that you can't just go back on that at this point, so I'm not going to keep quoting his old stuff into the new one and restart the discussion on those particular grounds. I'm not going to bait him, I'm not going to make personal attacks on him, and I'm not going to dredge up his past follies. In short, I'm going to do what I can to validate your confidence. I honestly do hope he doesn't keep posting the way he has been, and so I wont need to post at all, but to be honest, given what we've seen over the last few days, the way the new thread is going, and what I know about him from other peoples experiences...well, I'm holding out with all that much hope...
- BW
I dunno if I got the thread reopened or not, but I respect Steak for doing it. I'm just pissed off I sent that last one - I kinda painted myself into a corner and said I'd be good, so I can;t go in and get pissed off at all the morons in the new thread who're coddling to this guy. Asking for features, making suggestions - it's a bunch of newbs making it look like the entire community is accepting this guy. One twit even welcomed him to the community. Is this really the kind of arsehole we want to welcome into our community? And all this after we've spent the last three days stirring up anti Smart sentiment and linking to HLP. We're going to come across as a bunch of two faced arseholes who're refusing to stand up and tell this guy to f### off, while at the same time trying to incite the entire internet against him behind his back. I really, really don't like a lot of HLP right now.