Sectorgame

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What? Are you talking about my comment or his?

Snail wrote:...

What? Are you talking about my comment or his?

ghhyrd wrote:

deus69xxx wrote:as far as retreating, i said maybe,

Meh. I was not talking about/getting confused with what you said Snail, if that is what you are thinking.

What is there to 'what?'? I'm talking about your comment on who my comment was directed to. Also, the 'Snail is a bit of a giveaway, eh? but the talking about the retreat thing (as stated in the quote of my last post) was directed toward deus69xxx.

I was tired and didn't read that post correctly...

Snail wrote:I was tired and didn't read that post correctly...

I didn't read that post correctly either.

Really interesting thoughts to read. The biggest problem is that most theories (not all) imply that Shivans act and think like we terrans or the vasudans do. That is not correct. They live for completely different purpose. They have completely different existence. Imagine a race, a whole race having only one sole purpose. That race will not have a political system, no religious, racial or other misunderstandings. This race will have no economy, no currency, no culture, no history and no heritage. There are no individual needs only common, no individual thoughts, only common, every being lives only for his race and its benefit. Shivans live for one sole purpose, not to destroy, not to preserve and of course not to purify – but to guard.

Shivans is most likely an artificially created race. What they can do perfectly – to fight and to survive whatever the odds. They are not interested in technology or information because they simply DO NOT evolve. They have the same level of technological superiority as they had 8 millennia ago when they annihilated the Ancients. So, they breed, they do show environment adaptation skills but they do not evolve in the sense we understand this meaning. What more important I think their number is strictly limited. There may be quadrillions of them or even quintillions but their number may never cross input limitations – just right to execute their primary objective. Why would somebody create such “guardians” and what exactly do they guard?

Most likely millions of years ago a space faring race reached the level of progress that enabled it to create and open stable subspace nodes and build a network of passages between their systems. That race, lets call them the Predecessors, build a vast empire in our galaxy in which almost all systems were linked by subspace portals. After another million years of evolution looking for new boundaries the Predecessors decided to leave our galaxy and to explore the Universe searching for the answers on their questions. Of course they couldn’t leave their greatest treasure unguarded – who knows what forces may have come in its possession, reveal its secrets, open the doors they never should have opened and discover the forbidden knowledge. So Predecessors created guardians – the Shivans. Creatures perceptive to subspace fluctuations, fearless, restless, indestructible, armed with superior Predecessor’s technology had to assure that nobody finds the secrets of their creators until their possible return.

What the Predecessors were searching for? I’m afraid that will remain a mystery. Maybe they were looking for the Source – the entity we all call God, maybe for something else, we may actually never live long enough to find out. My theory is that they should have returned to our galaxy by now but they didn’t. I don’t think that it is possible to communicate via universe distances so its possible that fact that the Predecessor haven’t retuned triggered a encrypted program ordering the guardians to start searching for their creators whereabouts.

So the destruction of Capella had no destructive, or resource gathering purpose. The nebula beyond Gamma Draconis is fully capable of sustaining Shivans with gas for centuries if not millennia to come. Shivans most likely caused super nova to create a massive continuum distortion in order to accumulate much more energy for the jump then an ordinary system-to-system node can provide. Probably they were jumping to another galaxy. Almost all juggernauts jumped in the apex of stellar mass increase reaction. Those which left were to sustain the reaction so the others would finish the jump successfully. After the star reached its critical mass the reaction couldn’t have been stopped, so a supernova phenomenon in Capella is most likely not a goal but a consequence of Shivan actions. What’s more intriguing – that wasn’t their first intergalactic jump and the gas nebula beyond Gamma Draconis is clear evidence to that.

This concludes my theories on the Shivans and Capella incident.

Nice theory, my friend. Here's mine.


The Shivans

A long while before, the Shivans were the intergalactic masters of subspace. Controlled by a Hivemind and with extremely advanced technology, the Shivans had access to unlimited labor and resources spanning multiple galaxies. The Shivans traveled between galaxies with the use of 'Super Jump Nodes' (or Supernodes) at which point the subspace node was exceptionally large and very powerful.

The Shivans had multiple frontier fleets which ventured to the further reaches of the universe, as well as larger fleets nearer to the center protecting the Hive. Each of these fleets was placed very far away from each other, sometimes with little or no contact with the other fleets or the Hive. In the event that a fleet lose contact with the Hive, the Shivans have special 'Sub-Hives' or 'Backup-Hives' which control the force under its command until it either comes back into contact with the Hive or another larger Shivan fleet.

Cataclysm

After a while (around 200,000 to 10,000 years ago), a huge subspace cataclysm occurred. A sort of space-quake, the cataclysm destabilized hundreds of Subspace Nodes all over the known universe, throwing the Shivan fleets into disarray. The Shivan fleets decided independently that finding each of the other fleets, as well as the Hive, was the top priority. All of the fleets then set out on their journeys trying to find other nearby Shivan fleets and eventually to come together.

The Ancient's Knossos devices may also have been used to stabilize Subspace Nodes damaged by the cataclysm as well as other naturally unstable nodes. The Shivans may also have had the ability to stabilize Subspace Nodes, but were not able to re-stabilize the immensely larger Supernodes.

Another side-effect of the cataclysm was the creation of "phasing" and "dependent" nodes. Phasing subspace nodes were nodes that phased in and out of a usable condition. The nodes in FS1 that were not functional in FS2 were phasing nodes which had gone into a "dormant" stage during the events of FS2 and hence were not usable.

Dependent subspace nodes are "bonded" to a stronger Jump Node or Nodes, and are directly affected by things that happen to the main Node. Known dependent nodes were the extra nodes leading to Sol other than the Delta Serpentis node (see Node Inconsistencies for more information). Once the main Sol-Delta Serpentis node was destroyed, the other dependent nodes bound to it were appropriately destroyed.

The Great War

A very small Shivan fleet, known as the Lucifer fleet, came into contact with the Terrans and the Vasudans. They may have attacked as an instinct, or because of the interference of the rogue Terran intelligence branch.

The Lucifer fleet was a very small fleet with only a handful of destroyers at their disposal. For this reason, they took extra measures to protect their flagship, the SD Lucifer. These measures included implementing a powerful shielding system onto the superdestroyer, as well as unique Flux Cannon weapons. The reason the entire fleet was void of the beam cannons seen on the later Shivan ships is because they had never been developed. Because all of the Shivans were separated for tens of thousands of years, each developed in their own unique direction. However, certain ships remained in use, such as the Lilith, Cain and Demon, while others were phased out in certain fleets, like the Scorpion.

However, despite their measures, the GTA and the PVN was able to destroy the Shivan's flagship and the entire fleet.

The Sathanes

Before the cataclysm, the Sathanes used to nuke stars and other large objects of immense gravitational mass to create artificial Supernodes to travel large distances. The Sathanas fleet was also one of the largest fleets, and possibly the most technologically advanced.

After the cataclysm, the Sathanas fleet developed advanced devices to locate and communicate with other stranded Shivan fleets - The Shivan Comm Nodes encountered by the SOC in the second loop were just that - Shivan Communication Nodes.

The Sathanas fleet found the Lucifer fleet via the use of these devices, and decided to go into that part of the galaxy to come into contact with them. The remnants of the destroyed Lucifer fleet may have transmitted limited information on the enemy (the Galactic Terran Alliance and Parliamentary Vasudan Navy) and may also have transmitted the specifications of the flak gun, which may have been put to use by the Sathanas fleet themselves.

The Sathanas fleet also came into contact with a small fleet of Ravanas (such as the initial Ravana, the Beast and the Nebiros), which can explain the relatively small number of destroyers in comparison to the amount of Sathanes. The Sathanas fleet continued on to the area in which they located the Lucifer. However, there they encountered the enemy that had devastated the Lucifer fleet, and decided to fight back. Meanwhile, Admiral Bosch had learned of the Shivan's predicament, as well as the locations of many Shivan fleets, and decided to try and aid the Shivans by talking with them and disclosing the whereabouts of the Shivan fleets. When he finally came in contact with them, the Shivans changed their plans and begun bringing in the bulk of their Sathanas for a superjump. The Shivan Comm Nodes at the binary system in Into the Lion's Den were being used to communicate with the Shivan fleet that Bosch had told them of. The Shivans amassed their Sathanes near the Capella star and got ready for a superjump, and met with the Shivans on the other side of the galaxy.


Please give feedback.

Moi nice, but unfortunately, as opposed to other areas of theory, theoretical physics for example, there is absolutely no way of knowing anything further into the subject at all.

Nice theories none the less though all

I agree with 'Snail'
Could it be that because they were closed off from like Gamma Draconis and then suddenly were able to return
and wanted a particular node so that they could return to wherever
+ given all that extra effort as well so they could use it
the destruction of star as well as having to fight the resistance to get there and use it yes?
do you understand? My English is difficult i know.

I've been following the subject as well for sometime.

Based from what we've seen, there aren't a great deal of highly realistic clues as to how the Shivans function. I do, however, believe the hive mind theory may be possible. My two reasons for thinking so are:

#1: When the Lucifer was destroyed in the Great War, forces still within allied systems were somewhat isolated and not fighting with the same level of fierceness and power they originally. I must argue with myself about it though, because It is hard to say the Lucifer was a true flagshig. In the Second Great War, the Sathanas was not regarded as a flagship and the Shivans didn't suffer from the loss of the first one. Surely, if it were the hive mind theory, major targets like super destroyers or juggernauts should be causing the same effect as the Lucifer did. On a large scale, if this was to happen, the Shivans could be significantly weakened.

#2: The deployment of the Seraphim late in the engagement may also be a clue. If it was really that signifcant a threat to allied warships, why deploy it late in the war? If they had been deployed earlier, things would have been a lot harder. I believe they must have got desperate. In some cases, I have seen that when the hive mind has taken a toll that the hive will deploy assets in desperation which could have turn the tide if done a lot earlier.

Starwolf1991 wrote:I've been following the subject as well for sometime.

Based from what we've seen, there aren't a great deal of highly realistic clues as to how the Shivans function. I do, however, believe the hive mind theory may be possible. My two reasons for thinking so are:

#1: When the Lucifer was destroyed in the Great War, forces still within allied systems were somewhat isolated and not fighting with the same level of fierceness and power they originally. I must argue with myself about it though, because It is hard to say the Lucifer was a true flagshig. In the Second Great War, the Sathanas was not regarded as a flagship and the Shivans didn't suffer from the loss of the first one. Surely, if it were the hive mind theory, major targets like super destroyers or juggernauts should be causing the same effect as the Lucifer did. On a large scale, if this was to happen, the Shivans could be significantly weakened.

#2: The deployment of the Seraphim late in the engagement may also be a clue. If it was really that signifcant a threat to allied warships, why deploy it late in the war? If they had been deployed earlier, things would have been a lot harder. I believe they must have got desperate. In some cases, I have seen that when the hive mind has taken a toll that the hive will deploy assets in desperation which could have turn the tide if done a lot earlier.

I think there's always been some ambiguity over whether the whole 'hive mind' argument relates to an actual hive mind (i.e. bees), or a group mind. In any case, there can be varying degrees of independence and autonomy in either; my preference is for a high level of autonomy, as it makes for more interesting opposition. Whether Shivan tactical goals and objectives are unquestioned, and fully species wide, is an interesting question... I quite like the concept of the FS1 fleet and FS2 forces operating almost at cross-purposes.

I suspect Volition were very careful not to provide a concrete answer in either game, and what evidence we have isn't really 'evidence' as such.

With #1, it's worth noting that the destruction of the Lucifer effectively ended the Shivan war effort; there's no evidence that the Demon (or any other) class could destroy a planet. Even if the Shivans xenocidal aims were a side-objective or something larger, it's probable (I reckon) that the Lucifer was a dedicated and specialised tool. So the Shivan forces left would have had no clearly achievable objective - command structure or not - beyond retreat. And retreat may be an alien concept to them (no doctrine for it, nor even an option to be considered), or it may be some culturally unsustainable option ('come back with your shield or upon it').

In any case, #2 is clearly a case of gameplay balance over story IMO, plus there's no reason to assume it was borne of desperation - a military force may choose to expend its weaker, cheaper and more expendable assets first. It's not an exact analogy, but I believe the Romans (for example) used this type of strategy in open battle.

Ireng wrote:Ok, finally I finished this goddam excellent game, which kicked Metal Gear series to 2nd place in my favorite list.

This is my theory. I elaborated it while playing FS1 and concluded it ten minutes ago.

Shivans kill their enemies through swarming methods. We saw that their biggest threat in FS1 was the SD Lucifer, and as Admiral Petrarch states near the end of FS2, "the Lucifer fleet we faced 32 years ago is nothing compared to this Armada". Meaning they most likely didn't send all of their fleet since building 80 SJ Sathanas in 32 years is unlikely, mainly because if they had such a powerful economy, they would have annihilated the GTVA with total ease.

Perhaps they measured something like this:
GTVA Fleet * 5 = Shivan fleet we'll send

And yet they lost. As stated in the Tech room, the GTVA may be the first and only force that could have defeated the Shivans. This may have forced them to destroy the star that conforms the Nebula in FS2 in order to gather resources for their next invasion (as Alpha One attacks Gas miners inside the Nebula, proving that if the Shivans gathered resources, they needed them). They may have recalculated their attacking numbers (remember we don't know how many wars the Shivans are fighting while dealing with the GTVA). Their new equation may have been following these parameters:

GTVA Fleet * 7 = Shivans we'll send.

Remember they initially sent ONE Ravanna destroyer, and Alpha 1 wiped it clean. Then they launched a Sathanas, and recalculated

GTVA Fleet * 15 = Shivans we'll send.

And they lost again! This may have provoked them enough to think "Ok, this is too much. We're going full force to that f#####g galaxy and exterminate everything in-sight". Their final calculation would have been:

GTVA Fleet * 100 = Shivans we'll send (probably an enormous percentage of their total forces).

But, alas, Sathanas are slow. Destroying the jumps nodes out of Capella left them with no choice but to destroy the Capella Star. "WHY?", the thread title asks. Why not? They had no business left in Capella since they couldn't stop the Vega jump node from being destroyed, so they sent everyone to hell (including my Alpha One ), perhaps with the intention of opening a warp rift that may have sent them to another place in the universe. Perhaps their home. Perhaps another enemy which proved to be less resourceful. Perhaps Ross 128.

The truth is, the GTVA survived. Bosch was never seen again. And Twisted Infinites looms in the horizon.

I agree here, I think the Lusifer fleet was mearly a scout force which would wipe out other races that got too powerful/became a threat. As they said in FS1 at the end "The shivans were the great destroyers, but they were also the great preservers" by wiping out races that get too big and agressive they prevent them wiping everyone else out, weather intentional or not. I figure that they left us alone after FS1 considering us too insignificant to worry about, then when we tresspassed on their land in FS2 they sent their local fleet (read, still nothing big for them), and kicked our asses out then destroyed the star to put us back in line, but didnt decide to destroy us perhaps because the terrans and vasudans had allied and stoped fighting, perhaps it was an unusual reaction and something shivans didnt expect or it proves we have potential to be friends as we can overcome our differences?

Just brainstorming here.

EDIT 2:
Actually the more I think about it the more I see the Shivans as being like the Shadows in Babylon 5. A scary mysterious race that apears evil killing for the sake of it, but their actually trying to help the younger races, their just doing it in a way thats alien to us. Also the hive mind theory was something I definitely agreed with, which explains why the shivans didn't mind losing so many Sathanas class at Capella, their just pawns/drones, theres billions more and the hive doesn't care.

EDIT: Just noticed the dates..... ah

And then there's the matter of Bosch, of course. Could it have been him, directly (or indirectly) persuading the Shivans not to come after us, but instead stop at Capella?

FSF wrote:And then there's the matter of Bosch, of course. Could it have been him, directly (or indirectly) persuading the Shivans not to come after us, but instead stop at Capella?

Bosh and the end sequence of FS1 are the biggest evidence that Shivans aren't random destroyers, and that theres more behind it, most likely their weeding out the violent and dumb (the races that aren't willing to learn to get along or adapt).

I also recall reading that the Vasudans were decedents (if only in part) of the Ancients, could it be the Shivans have a grudge against them since they are related, thus why Bosh created the NTF realizing the Shivans would be favorable to an allience with the GTA?