Page 3 of 4
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:30 am
by karajorma
liberator wrote:I really wouldn't mind them taking them from naturally terminated embryos, but I have a big problem if they take them from aborted babies. You run a big risk of women getting preganant and them getting an abortion to make money from harvesting the stem cells.
So ban making money from donating stem cells rather than the research itself. If that's your objection to it.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:31 am
by Black Wolf
Wheee.
It's just like HLP.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:35 am
by karajorma
Till HLP goes back up it seems that way
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:41 am
by aldo
The tumbleweeds must be feeling rejected
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:10 pm
by karajorma
Goober5000 wrote:Grimloq wrote:C: if your reason for not taking embryos and using them is purely religious, id like to stop you guys from bringing that up now
Then don't bring it up yourself.
I'm approaching this discussion from a strictly libertarian perspective. If you want to debate the religious angle, I'm game, but I doubt many others are.
Okay if we're discussing this from a purely libertarian angle then why are embryos from IVF that would be discarded not valid for use in stem cell research?
If you're going at this from a religious point of view you could claim that they have souls and are alive but from a pure libertarian view what's the difference between an unimplanted embryo and unfertilised egg or sperm cell?
None of those will turn into a baby unless they are implanted in a womb so unless you're using the religious arguement that life begins at conception the libertarian arguemnt find in favour of stem cell research using IVF embryos.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:56 pm
by Grimloq
Goober5000 wrote:Then don't bring it up yourself. I'm approaching this discussion from a strictly libertarian perspective. If you want to debate the religious angle, I'm game, but I doubt many others are.
it was just a warning...
aldo wrote: I made the Warlock. There's only one aldo - me - I just forget to sign in a lot.
Albeit the Warlock is a bit of a shite model.......
ya, which brings me to my point: i was wondering if you would let me practice and try to uber-ize if to HTL standards. i dont know if theres some unspoken rule about never touching other peoples models... but i think the warlock is a great ship, and properly done it could be an awesome one. (i know htat sounded like 'im the only good uberizer', but taht what just bad wording...)
anywayz...
the recycling truck is still a valid point. logically speaking, anything is just that: a thing. humans are only different becasue we have a more advanced 'AI' than anything else. if we dont have brains, then we are essentially inanimate, cept for heartbeat, ect. i mean, we examine a situation, then choose an action from any possible ones. isnt that what an AI does?
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:33 pm
by aldo
ya, which brings me to my point: i was wondering if you would let me practice and try to uber-ize if to HTL standards. i dont know if theres some unspoken rule about never touching other peoples models... but i think the warlock is a great ship, and properly done it could be an awesome one. (i know htat sounded like 'im the only good uberizer', but taht what just bad wording...)
Go ahead, but I'd prefer if you don't use the name 'Warlock' because I haven't ruled out redoing it myself at some point (all depends if I can find a suitable design)
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:55 pm
by Goober5000
karajorma wrote:Okay if we're discussing this from a purely libertarian angle then why are embryos from IVF that would be discarded not valid for use in stem cell research?
Same reason as before: we don't have their permission.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:09 pm
by Grimloq
ERK! that last quote got screwey...
aldo didnt say all that
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:27 pm
by karajorma
Goober5000 wrote:karajorma wrote:Okay if we're discussing this from a purely libertarian angle then why are embryos from IVF that would be discarded not valid for use in stem cell research?
Same reason as before: we don't have their permission.
I know but that's a religious point of view. You're not asking for permission from sperm to conduct experiments using them are you? So you've made the choice that an unimplanted fertilised egg is a person where as a sperm cell isn't. That's not a scientific choice though. As the sperm cell and the fertilised egg require exactly the same conditions to become a baby, implantation into a womb. Therefore from a scientific point of view they should have equivalent rights.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:31 pm
by Goober5000
No, the libertarian perspective is this: There's a big debate on whether the embryo is a human being or not. Some people say it is and some people say it isn't. Without a definitive answer, the libertarian must err on the side of caution. If there is a *possibility* that the embryo is a human being, the libertarian must not risk infringing on its potential rights.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:37 pm
by karajorma
Except that the debate is based on religious principles. I doubt any scientist would claim that an embryo was a human being unless he was also religious.
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:48 pm
by Goober5000
So the libertarian will refuse to commit one way or the other. The religious people say it's a human being, and the nonreligious people say it's not. Without knowing the answer (and without being able to ask the embryo
) the libertarian must err on the side of preserving potential rights.
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:27 am
by karajorma
So wait a sec. If I can come up with any jumped up nonsense and believe it then a libertarian has to go along with it just in case I'm correct?
Let's try some serious ones first though. Lots of people say that you have a right to free health care paid for by taxes. That means that a libertarian automatically has to support that? What about euthanasia? Lots of people support that. From a libertarian point of view you have to support their right to choose their own manner of death even if it is against your own religious convictions?
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:34 am
by Goober5000
Libertarians say that government has no business doing anything other than safeguarding the rights of its citizens. So the tax thing is out on the face of it.
As far as euthanasia, the way I understand it is that an individual has a right to commit suicide if he/she wants, but nobody else is obligated to help them. Whether other parties choose to do so is their own business. But if the person doesn't express a clear wish to be euthanized, then nobody else has a right to euthanize them.