Sectorgame

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:32 pm**

To be fair, there's probably not many stories or tales that don't draw on some aspect of greek myth. It'd be very surprising if a show that referenced a lot of ancient Greek religion didn't draw from more than just the names.

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:23 pm**

You have a point, but I find the analogies Flipside posted a bit forced... more like as an attempt to consider BSG the "new face" of Greek mythology even if the number of differences, compared to that of the analogies, is basically the same you would expect to find in any other story.

The key word is not "inspiration" or "reference", but rather "coincidence".

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:29 pm**

Mobius wrote:You have a point, but I find the analogies Flipside posted a bit forced... more like as an attempt to consider BSG the "new face" of Greek mythology even if the number of differences, compared to that of the analogies, is basically the same you would expect to find in any other story.

The key word is not "inspiration" or "reference", but rather "coincidence".

I strongly doubt it - coincidence would imply the writers were totally unaware of the Odyssey and never had any idea of possible connections or similiarities.

Particularly when the Hybrids lines are direct references to the Illiad (yup, I googled). And when the head writers refer to it as one of the influences / references in the show.

EDIT; to be clear, definitely and evidently NOT coincidence then. Also, not sure you're reading Flip properly. A re-imagining is vastly different from a retelling, and it's more important that the ethos of the story remains rather than the precise details. Additionally on top of that, a re-imagining need not rely on a single source for its inspiration or framework, particularly a TV series.

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:28 pm**

There's a word to describe the process: Contaminatio.

What people know influences their creations - I can create something and then find out that it's familiar (it happened to me several times, both in simple storytelling and campaign design). Then, in order to be politically correct, I say that a particular book or game provided the inspiration I need.

It's not rare, really.

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:50 pm**

Mobius wrote:There's a word to describe the process: Contaminatio.

What people know influences their creations - I can create something and then find out that it's familiar (it happened to me several times, both in simple storytelling and campaign design). Then, in order to be politically correct, I say that a particular book or game provided the inspiration I need.

It's not rare, really.

Contamination is accidental, reference is intentional. I'm no stranger to doing both, of course, but I think it's pretty obvious when something is accidentally similar and something is intentionally referencing.

(Tell me, how would 'contamination' manifest in exact quotes from the Illiad in the Hybrids speeches?)

I'm pretty sure 99% of professional screenwriters have read, or are familiar with, Homers work. The Illiad is possibly the most influential piece of writing in history, after all, and the idea that they'd accidentally reference it without even noticing - when they're already using quotes and character names directly - beggars belief.

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:36 pm**

That kind of quotes can be added well after writing the plot.

It's not strange, really - adding quotes on purpose can be done at any moment to tribute a given author and/or give more importance to the work, possibly with expectable results.

Speaking of BSG (which is the main subject of the topic and going OT is not reasonable), I've always thought that its creators used a load of references on purpose only to raise the value of the final product. I'd like to mention 3 examples, all from Season 2:

1) Episode 13 - Epiphanies

President Roslin says something that, translated back into English, is like "It's interesting how, when you're a president, you don't have to provide anyone with explanations for your actions" (almost certainly, the original version is different - literal translations hardly work). If I remember well, she quoted President Adar in saying that.

The funny thing is that the phrase is a direct reference to George W. Bush, but its moral validity can also be extended to virtually any dictatorship. Strangely, however, the reference to Bush seemed to attract more attention.

2) Episode 15 - Scar

When turning back to check her six only a few seconds before being damaged by Scar itself, Kara Thrace covers a sun with one of her fingers. I read how that action is intended to be a reference to the American WWII pilot Colonel Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, leader of VMF-214. Strange, very strange, because I'm pretty sure the action of covering the Sun with a finger was very well known even near the beginning of WWI. I remember a film in which Boelcke tells the (future) Red Baron to cover the Sun with a finger (and not with the whole hand) to have a better POV.

Yet again, a reference to an American pilot seemed more appropriate. I hardly doubt the creators didn't know about Boelcke (or, more in general, to the true origins of that action) when they decided to add that reference to Boyington.

3) Episode 12 - Resurrection Ship

Lee Adama's experience in this episode is compared to that of George Gay, an American pilot who attacked a Japanese fleet before the battle of Midway (I remember a film about the event). Despite being a very specific event which doesn't have that many analogies with other war experiences, this is another attempt to raise BSG's value by adding yet another reference to an American.

That's why I think those references seem pretty ridiculous and forced attempts to give more importance to the whole show, and that's why I imagine the show's creators deciding to add quotes from the Odyssey only to "help" BSG and give more cultural importance to the show. That's the impression I have.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:17 am**

How do you guys EVERY enjoy a show? Seriously?

I have never seen anyone who can so thoroughly degrade, disassemble, and generally make one sick and tired of, a perfectly good show.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:03 am**

Mobius wrote:That kind of quotes can be added well after writing the plot.

It's not strange, really - adding quotes on purpose can be done at any moment to tribute a given author and/or give more importance to the work, possibly with expectable results.

We will remember to do this with everything you have worked on.

No matter what you claim your influence actually is, we'll pick something else and continuously assert that this was your actual influence and anything else you claim is simply an attempt to raise the value of your work.

I will now explain how your campaigns are quite obviously based off of an episode of Spongebob Squarepants.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:52 pm**

Your point? Yeah, I'm adding references, and I'm doing that on purpose. I don't do that to boost my work because it'll be quite hard to get all of the references - if I tell you that a Fenris cruiser named "Huan" engages a Cain cruiser named "Carcharoth", would you get the reference?

The difference with BSG is that they focused most of references to American people while I pick up different nationalities.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:05 pm**

Matthew wrote:How do you guys EVERY enjoy a show? Seriously?

I have never seen anyone who can so thoroughly degrade, disassemble, and generally make one sick and tired of, a perfectly good show.

Some of us enjoy this analysis crap.

Hell, I usually extemporize it.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:27 pm**

It's not the show, it's the publicity behind it. Trying to give more value to BSG thanks to forced references is a bit strange.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:23 pm**

Mobius wrote:Your point? Yeah, I'm adding references, and I'm doing that on purpose. I don't do that to boost my work because it'll be quite hard to get all of the references - if I tell you that a Fenris cruiser named "Huan" engages a Cain cruiser named "Carcharoth", would you get the reference?

Yep, you're quite obviously referencing Zhang Huan in an attempt to pull in the trendy art set. You should be quite ashamed of yourself even without the donkey f#####g.

The difference with BSG is that they focused most of references to American people while I pick up different nationalities.

No, the difference is that when they reference something else, people like you refuse to believe it.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:50 pm**

New Caprica is like Nùmenor.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:53 pm**

karajorma wrote:You should be quite ashamed of yourself even without the donkey f#####g.

I refuse to click that link.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:24 pm**

That was a side of Saatchi I never wanted to see.