Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#1
Yeppppp, it's time to get into this Covid-19 stuff. I've been watching from 'afar' for quite a few months in Korea before I actually got more involved in mid-March early April. And after coming back to the UK in July, it's now pretty surreal to even be here. To be honest, I am having trouble adjusting anymore. There is something .. very wrong about all of this, and people just seem to be going along with it.

Now, I know, before you start, I'm not going to entertain the idea that the virus is some fake pandemic, or that Bill Gates planned it all, or that 5G is causing corona symptoms, or that the Rockefeller group are creating a 'New World Order' on the back of this virus pandemic. Rather, I think we've been mislead by a bunch of bumbling buffoons in various governments (and agencies) across the world that panicked and hit the 'stop' button, without realizing what they had just done. Yes, the virus is real, yes, it's potentially worse than the flu - but is it the black death? Most certainly not.

For quite a while now I've had my ear to the ground and have been keeping a watchful eye on both the 'MSM' and the 'alternative media' and everything in-between. I believe somewhere in the middle sits the truth, but neither has the full story and most are either being hyperbolic or downright bold faced lying. This extends to every discussion about this topic on almost every form of social media on the interwebs (especially Reddit, my gods), including forums such as this one - arm chair experts frothing at the mouth, shouting down at each other and establishing some kind of pseudo moral high ground on a bed made of quicksand. And then everything just turns into an echo chamber of nodding bobble heads "Yes they deserve that" "Oh yes couldn't agree more" "I told you so!". What a sad state of affairs public discourse has turned into. I thought it was pretty bad in Korea, but the UK has lost the plot.

So anyways, I've been searching for a long time now one SINGLE document that sums up everything I've been researching in my spare time (which is a lot now..). Fortunately, some site called Swiss Policy Research has done just that and managed to roll it all into one single, 60 page document. Now, before you label this as a 'conspiracy site' no doubt as one of these so called 'fact checker' sites will probably do (they CANNOT be trusted), I urge you to set aside a couple of hours and properly take in everything that has been written and carefully pieced together.

The page is available just to read, or I've attached it as a printable PDF.
We're entering the twilight zone here, people.

Critical thinking is very important when dealing with this. I'm very skeptical, but I'm also very open to discussion about this. In fact, I'm even skeptical about my skepticism. It's like being stuck in a loop. But I know one thing for sure - the main news outlets in the UK have no journalistic integrity remaining.

Ignore all of this if you must, but consider the implications. You'll need at least an hour to get though this..

https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/
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Re: Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#3
Yeah, we're swimming in peer-reviewed studies lately. So many studies about all these things, can't keep up with them... I'm so glad all those studies are being published driving current policies.

I've read the entire thing (have you?), and I don't know about the validity of everything in there nor do I believe everything is accurate. There are hundreds of links to wade through.
I would say there are some valid concerns, and I've been researching this in my own time for months and a lot of this information lines up with that.
I do have corroborating evidence of my own from Korea, alongside other sources, independent of any Western 'conspiracy' site, so I do have troubling thoughts.
By that logic, haven't the media been doing exactly this for months? So let's go with the assumption that both the 'main' and the 'alternative' media have valid points to make, and equally invalid ones. Btw: Most of this 'study' is not really all that conspiratorial. It acknowledges much of the data officially published. I know very little of this outlet, and it wouldn't surprise me if they've published outlandish conspiracy theories in the past, but then again, who hasn't? Every single news paper has done that. Even the news channels have done that. That doesn't mean everything they later publish is somehow automatically false.
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Re: Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#4
It doesn't. But it does mean that I'd be very wary about trusting anything they have to say on the matter.

My issue with coronavirus is why should I have to spend an hour reading up on facts about transmission in the first place? How a disease spreads is something that should be left up to epidemiologists and not lay people who have read a few sites on the internet and think that this in any way qualifies them to talk about the subject. We don't do this anywhere else. You don't tell a mechanic he's wrong because you've watched a few episodes of Top Gear. You don't say “I've spent 200 hours in MS Flight Simulator - I know more than a pilot!" Training to be a scientist requires a lot of work. It can't be replicated by simply reading stuff on the internet.

So my view on this is the same as it is on most science-related issues, let the science speak first. And then we can decide on what to do about it.
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Re: Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#5
But that's just it, isn't it? In science, there is no 'the science'... it's just science. You're right, we're not qualified to analyze this, nor are sites like Swiss Research. But there *has* been quite a few 'qualified' in this subject bringing up these very concerns in the study. Professors, Doctors, Nurses, Epidemiologists etc. There are hundreds, if not thousands of instances where we've seen people speaking out against current policies from simple things like mask wearing to more sinister claims of treatment methods in hospitals. And not all of these people are arm-chair experts, many are indeed qualified in their fields with respected track records. So, we only believe the ones guiding government now? A very risky choice.

And we've seen these past months that 'the science' is being quoted all the time by party leaders, doing exactly what you've just described. People that don't really know much about science, are listening to those that do - but can we trust everyone in that field? I would submit that the consequences of government actions these past few months are going to be felt for years and years to come, possibly with untold poverty and death completely unrelated to the covid-19 pandemic. It's one thing dealing with a broken car, because that only impacts you and yours. But we're dealing with something that will, given time, have huge consequences for all of us. Waiting for a peer reviewed study that delivers the answers to you on a golden plate isn't going to happen. Waiting for 'the science' isn't going to be good enough, because the damage is done - and being done day by day.

I urge a serious re-think of your standpoint that it's 'not our problem'.
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Re: Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#6
I didn't say it wasn't our problem. I said that I would be very wary of taking the words of non-experts over those who are. Especially when as you say there are people out there who want to manipulate the science in order to make money.

Countries which have followed the general scientific consensus have had lower rates of transmissions and deaths than those which came up with crackpot ideas like the UK and US did. The proof that it is the right thing to do is right there. So yes, I get very suspicious when people are trying to tell me that the science says something else.
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Re: Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#7
I didn't say it wasn't our problem. I said that I would be very wary of taking the words of non-experts over those who are. Especially when as you say there are people out there who want to manipulate the science in order to make money.

Countries which have followed the general scientific consensus have had lower rates of transmissions and deaths than those which came up with crackpot ideas like the UK and US did. The proof that it is the right thing to do is right there. So yes, I get very suspicious when people are trying to tell me that the science says something else.
Either way, this information is starting to trickle into the mainstream. Just recently I've heard radio presenters interviewing 'experts' bringing forth the very information that this document covers - such as the rates of transmission in lower age groups, the incorrect counting of deaths, the damage caused by lockdowns, the meaningless fear-mongering about 'cases' that persists now well into the summer months. Let me be clear here, I'm not saying this document is the silver bullet - it just an essential overview of everything that has been discussed over the past few months in countless outlets; including viewpoints and research from experts in their field. Much of this has been ignored by the press for weeks and months, and even some people have been censored with dubious reasoning. The press in particular have, I believe, have caused massive damage these past few months. What I've been looking for is a page that basically sums everything up in a single place - that's why I'm pointing to it. I myself have been seeing these inconsistencies for months now, and I was even contemplating putting something like this together myself. You don't have to read it, because it sounds like you're already in agreement with the summary. The UK and the US, and parts of Europe and Oceania, have ... well, kinda lost the plot.
Countries which have followed the general scientific consensus have had lower rates of transmissions and deaths
Well, yeah, that's exactly what we're getting at here. Though, I'm not sure there is a scientific consensus per se (is there truly ever?), but it certainly seems like there have been some huge, huge mistakes in the way Western countries have handled this. IMO they're now trying to cover their butts because the fallout for them would be catastrophic if the general public started to get a scent of these failures. I just hope that these 'mistakes' aren't going to lead to something more sinister down the road.
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Re: Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#9
https://www.justfactsdaily.com/media-bi ... dishonest/

https://climatechangedispatch.com/media ... nd-desist/

https://www.palmerreport.com/politics/s ... edia/2342/

And the list goes on. I'm sure I could find 50 more, and 50 'fact checks' for each of those sites. Why should I trust a fact checking site with a dishonest track record being run by a college kid? We could run circles with this all day, and we'd be none the wiser. As for rebuttal that 'well then that's a reason not to trust Swiss Research either' then you'd be right . But you're not going to get a balanced diet of information from the likes of the BBC or the British government. If you're not going to examine the data that leading French, Spanish, German and now some UK doctors are now saying - JUST this past 48 hours on live TV - experts - by dictionary definition and your criteria, and this would be completely unrelated to Swiss Research - then we aren't really getting anywhere with this, are we?

Many 'experts' and 'non-experts' have now stated that the covid-19 PCR test, for example, is flawed and does not accurately distinguish between an active infection or an inactive one, and it cannot tell if the patient is infected with sars-cov-2 or a similar coronavirus. This tracks with a statement from the head of Infectious Diseases at Seoul National University some months ago, alongside several other disease experts in Seoul. This potential flaw in the test has also been pointed out by a number of health professionals worldwide and has been largely ignored by the media. Why is this important? Well, we are destroying entire economies with lockdowns and quarantine measures based on the amount of cases and the so called 'R' number. If those case numbers are flawed, or possibly contaminated with high amounts of false positives, then I'd say that is a very important thing to consider.

In addition, while we are seeing a rise in case numbers (due to more rigorous testing) we are also seeing a huge drop in ICU admissions and a drop in deaths throughout Europe for several weeks now, yet we still persist with the lockdowns, denying hospital services and treatment to non-covid patients, disrupting huge swaths of the economy with petty micro management and putting countless people out of work. Preventable non-covid deaths are being side tracked. Cancers are not being properly screened. People are losing jobs. People are going into debt. Suicide rates are up. Third world countries are going into deeper levels of poverty, which will lead to mass starvation. And on and on and on. Now, all of this might be justified if the covid-19 virus was still as dangerous as we thought it was in the beginning, but we now have the data that says otherwise or at the very least indicates that there has been a change - at least for the situation in the UK and Europe. So what is going on? Are we just going to keep on with this charade until the country is upside down and on fire?
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Re: Okay, let's get serious about this now.

#10
Anyway, I'm stepping back from this for now. It is quite to clear to me that 'something' is not right, what that is? I do not know. I'm not saying all of these claims are valid, but I do know that keeping an open mind is important as is the ability to use critical thinking. I didn't reach this site out of the blue and suddenly decide this was the case, it was months of suspicion and inconsistencies. It is merely a centralized source that encapsulates what I have gleamed over the past few months. And I will not simply dismiss something out of hand just because some site tells me what to think, especially given the ulterior motives of those operating them - and I acknowledge that can go both ways. I am perfectly happy to change my mind on any given point when presented with the data. But there is only so much of this drivel I can withstand, wading through 'conspiracy nonsense' is tiresome and it damages the position of those in the scientific community trying to make their points about this pandemic. However, that doesn't change the fact that I believe, I truly do believe, that something is definitely not right here. People that aren't informed or prepared for the freight train that is coming down the tracks should take caution, because nothing is as it seems.
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