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Mobius wrote:
Back on topic:

Aldo, that post of mine is not related to BSG's plot. It was related to what I consider exaggerated publicity. I don't like several aspects of BSG, but that surely doesn't classify me as a "hater" of the show... the point here is a bit different.

Half the description of a BSG episode (at least, the one I can read in my DVDs) is spent describing the references featured in that episode. You'd say that there's nothing wrong in this... but the way they're used makes them look like an obvious attempt to pimp the quality of the show.

From an artistic point of view, I think references should remain hidden until someone finds them. It's the fans who should find the references, not the creators of the show itself. If all these references were in fan sites, it'd be fully understandable... but doing something like this:

"Here's the show... and here's the list of cultural references for everyone to read!"

...is just a little suspicious. That's my personal opinion about the matter.


Unless I missed the BSG special box set with pop-up labels in the show saying "REFERENCE HERE; blah blah", they are 'hidden'. If you read or listened to an inteview pointing out reference x and y, then you have absolutely no ground for complaint.

Do you really think someone, when interviewed about their script writing, artistic design, etc, should just go 'figure it out yourself'? If so, what exactly do you think these people are interviewed for?

Just a note; references are not a scavenger hunt for a single sad b#stard on the internet to google down. They are touching points into what can loosely be defined as a cultural subconscious, to emphasise fictional points through recognisable real life parallels. If the writers don't acknowledge it openly, then someone will ask them anyways - or accuse them of plagiarism.

AFAIK you are bitching purely about a scriptwriter, interviewed about his scriptwriting, discussing what helped inspire his script. Maybe you feel it should be hidden so you can join some elitist 'I got it' club?

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Mobius wrote:I don't see why this can't be resolved peacefully, without "ultimate solutions". I apologize for the overreaction, and I also apologize for the (indirect or not) offenses, but someone here also has to understand my current position.
So wait. You made repeated accusations about how I had a vendetta against you, claimed I got you banned from the Wiki when I didn't, changed your GW sig to insult me and HLP, misrepresented my PM to you as a threat to ban you when it quite clearly wasn't and when I say I'm sick of dealing with your s### and I'm not going to protect you from the consequences of your actions you NOW decide you want a peaceful solution?

No.

I'm out. If the other HLP admins want you gone, you're gone. I took time out of my day to warn you what would happen if you continued acting that way and you ignored it except for the bits you could twist to feed your persecution complex.

Your call for peace is too little. Far, far too late. I've already made my decision and it's final. You're on your own as far as I'm concerned.
Snail wrote:I genuinely believe he means to do good for this community even if recent events indicate otherwise.
I don't doubt it. But his current attitude stinks and he needs to dial it back down to where it was when he joined.

And eventually it comes down to whether the admins are willing to put up with a single member being the cause of widespread disruption on a board.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ

[Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [Mind Games]

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Snail wrote:I typed up a nice medium-length post in response to Mobius' claims that I left Inferno under lack of interest, but I decided against posting it since I don't want to be drawn into this discussion.

What I would like to say, however, is that Mobius has a fair number of valid points. He isn't completely in the wrong here - Some of the administration's decisions as well as the general attitude of the community are a bit off or unduly harsh from my point of view.


Coming from me of all people, this might seem like some kind of act, but as someone who has known and worked with Mobius very closely for quite some time I have to say that your image of him is quite far from the truth. He may come off as arrogant and egotistical, but he is no liar. I genuinely believe he means to do good for this community even if recent events indicate otherwise.
Best comment so far, really. It sums up basically everything, and I really appreciate it. :)
karajorma wrote:So wait. You made repeated accusations about how I had a vendetta against you, claimed I got you banned from the Wiki when I didn't, changed your GW sig to insult me and HLP, misrepresented my PM to you as a threat to ban you when it quite clearly wasn't and when I say I'm sick of dealing with your s### and I'm not going to protect you from the consequences of your actions you NOW decide you want a peaceful solution?

No.

I'm out. If the other HLP admins want you gone, you're gone. I took time out of my day to warn you what would happen if you continued acting that way and you ignored it except for the bits you could twist to feed your persecution complex.

Your call for peace is too little. Far, far too late. I've already made my decision and it's final. You're on your own as far as I'm concerned.

I don't doubt it. But his current attitude stinks and he needs to dial it back down to where it was when he joined.

And eventually it comes down to whether the admins are willing to put up with a single member being the cause of widespread disruption on a board.
What does that mean? Mine was a clear and well-thought attempt to bring this back to the much needed normality, and a rejection is not going to help anyone. If you think about it, there are no real benefits... I see only bad consequences.

Sorry, but I think too much has been done already. I have been effectively prevented to post on public forums (Interviews excluded), and I've also been threatened of banning on GW for a supposed accuse towards HLP (which really wasn't). I noticed offenses here, and reacted accordingly. Everything was fully understandable if only you were in my position. Now, that it's possible to return back to normality and focus once again on cooperation, the "second conclusion" takes place?

When it's possible to normalize everything, what's the point in ignoring a much needed proposal? If you really want to preserve the community, you should accept this and let me work as usual without, of course, posting this kind of things on public forums. I don't even see a good reason to do that - HLP banning following a debate, which so far hasn't turned into a major flame war, on SG? This debate has absolutely no influence over HLP. Sorry, but not only it's exaggerate... it does hardly help.

And finally, disruption on a board doesn't come from a single member. The quality and tone of the responses has a great influence, and if you take a look at NGTM-1R's posts (driven by total misinformation) you'd notice how the matrix of the results takes its distance from my original intent. Judging me depending on the disruptive replies I got tells nothing about me. You may have corrected NGTM-1R's wrong statements, and you clearly had the knowledge and powers to do that. You didn't, and more or less supported him during the debate.
Non ti curar di loro, ma guarda e passa!

President and Founder of the Official Karajorma Fan Club
(the memberlist has been lost for unknown reasons)

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Mobius wrote:What does that mean? Mine was a clear and well-thought attempt to bring this back to the much needed normality, and a rejection is not going to help anyone. If you think about it, there are no real benefits... I see only bad consequences.
I'm not seeing any honest contrition here. Had you actually had an epiphany and realised that you've acted like a twat for the last few months you would have apologised to everyone and left it at that.

Instead you felt the need to have a go at ngtm1r.

To my mind you haven't changed one iota. You've simply realised you fucked up pushing me as far as you did and now you're desperately trying to mollify me in an attempt to prevent yourself from suffering the consequences of your actions.
When it's possible to normalize everything, what's the point in ignoring a much needed proposal? If you really want to preserve the community, you should accept this and let me work as usual without, of course, posting this kind of things on public forums. I don't even see a good reason to do that - HLP banning following a debate, which so far hasn't turned into a major flame war, on SG? This debate has absolutely no influence over HLP. Sorry, but not only it's exaggerate... it does hardly help.
The only reason you haven't been banned from HLP so far is because the admins felt that monkeying you rather than banning you might be enough to provoke a change in character. Your subsequent actions haven't validated this view and there have been calls to change monkeying into a temp or permanent (until you stop acting like a twat) ban.

One reason that those calls haven't been taken up is because I opposed them. I'm out now though, so next time the admins decide that monkeying isn't going to change you, you'll probably be banned.

Don't say you weren't warned. The proof you were is on the thread.
And finally, disruption on a board doesn't come from a single member. The quality and tone of the responses has a great influence, and if you take a look at NGTM-1R's posts (driven by total misinformation) you'd notice how the matrix of the results takes its distance from my original intent. Judging me depending on the disruptive replies I got tells nothing about me. You may have corrected NGTM-1R's wrong statements, and you clearly had the knowledge and powers to do that. You didn't, and more or less supported him during the debate.
Like I said, I'm done covering your back. You've gone out of your way to insult me over the last couple of months and now you expect me to help you argue with someone over quibbling little points when I tend to feel that the vast majority of his post is correct?

Get over yourself. I have better things to do with my time than defending people who insult me.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ

[Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [Mind Games]

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There's another thread for this, now.
Non ti curar di loro, ma guarda e passa!

President and Founder of the Official Karajorma Fan Club
(the memberlist has been lost for unknown reasons)

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As someone who does frequent any Freespace related forums, I have to make some observations:
Firstly, there have been claims of Private messages in support\defamation of multiple parties here, along with posts in hidden forums, etc. and yet none of these messages have surfaced. It's rather easy to claim there's loads of support for one's cause without ever having to produce proof.

Secondly, Mobius' tone is eerily similar to someone in the Descent community. On multiple occasions he has suggested a "peace" of sorts all the while taking shots at the counterpart project. And when he was called out on it he goes into full reverse and claims it's the other person\people with issues because they won't compromise and let things lay. Sound familiar?
At least you don't make a claim, have someone call you out on it, and then edit your original post and call that person a liar. Kudos.

Thirdly I find it ironic that a person is questioning someone else's maturity when that person has a signature that part of it could be summed up as a childish display of taking a shot at someone.

I am curious as to why you[Mobius] decided to not post that lengthy post, and said that one could simply request that you send them it instead of simply posting it. It's easy to say that you've got a box of pure goodness and never show it to people. If you're convinced you're right, and that you rebut everything that's said, why not post it? Certainly if you have evidence that supports your position, wouldn't it be to your benefit to post it in a public forum?
"If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?"
-Steven Wright

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Mobius wrote: That said, however, I find NGTM-1R's comments well out of place... and they deserve a reply.

NGTM-1R, you're not as well appreciated as you pretend to be (I've recently read bad comments about your behavior on IM and private forums, then guess how better than the others you can really claim to be), so the whole point of behaving as arbiter doesn't make sense.
I am not here to be loved, I'm here to talk about Non-Internet Spaceships, and if people don't like me, at least they'll hopefully acknowledge the points that I've made as valid. (And, if we're honest, they usually do. You can look at my thread about subspace-age tactics if you don't believe that.)(EDIT FROM FUTURE NGT: Or follow the links provided later in this post.)

Also frankly I'm not here to make people happy, but neither is it my goal to make them cry. As Jason Sartin (amusing guy and tester of games for RPG.net) once said of a different form of testing "however, I was enlisted for the strength of my cruelty, and even had my best friend made this the resultant bitchslapping would be mighty indeed." Affirmation will come to those who deserve it in due course. The perfect campaign has not been designed, much less released, and I'm here to ensure that people know something went wrong so they can fix it.

Also, you're trying the private messages and private forums strategy again. I don't believe you. Produce the evidence or leave it out of the discussion.
Mobius wrote: What I see in the latest post of yours is, yet again, the result of unmatched misinformation and forced will to lead the debate to degenerate. In the post I'm keeping private, I have replied to a couple of statements of yours (I might have replied to a third one as well), proving that your overreaction is driven by misinformation. NGTM-1R, you clearly don't know what you're talking about... and I'm not refering to internal forums you can't browse. You're showing poor knowledge of the episodes which occurred on HLP as well, because even reading a couple of public posts may have been enough to reconsider the content of your latest additions to this thread.
Oh please. I read HLP regularly. I'm up on all the things that happened. You're not pointing out specific instances here either; produce the evidence already, if it's so damning. If you refer to your brief, hesitant, and thoroughly hypocritical apologies on HLP, I am quite aware of them. I also chose to disregard them because, among other things, you have not acted in any fashion consistant with them.
Mobius wrote: Your will to pretend to know a lot about internal matters is unmatched, really. You said that I impose my style to other FSCRP team members, which is weird considering that most of the times I worked alone. When working with someone else, however, I haven't experienced anything comparable to what you're claiming. I would really like to know if you have proofs to backup your assumptions.
I can read. I saw it happening in the Warzone revamp public thread, among other places. (Also, I noted with horror that you were actually proposing changes to the missions, not merely fixing them up and polishing them.) I'm not pretending to know what goes on in the internals; I watched this stuff happen in a public thread. On another level, I am not claiming that you have driven anyone from the FSCRP (an unfortunate acronym; one letter more...), I am claiming that, having seen your behavior, the more experienced community members have refused to join or assist. An admittedly difficult to prove assertion, but you're not going to get help out of Karaj at least.

I'll also simply point at Rants here and note that more than one person has confessed their anger and frustration with you. Granted, you have no way of knowing if what I'm saying is true, but then again, unproveable claims are your modus operandi in this thread so far. And mine, at least, can be proved to various other people associated with this thread, unlike your claims of PMs that nobody but you can see.
Mobius wrote: As for INF, it's no secret that Snail doesn't like it. It can be easily noticed, and there's nothing I can do about it. Snail has his reasons, right? He left the team following a lack of interest and a couple of accidents on the FS Wiki. I fail to understand, however, how this is related to the topic (or better, to what the topic has derailed to). Maybe you're trying to say that working with me is awful? Once again, you need much more than the misinterpretation of public posts to claim that.
Snail has already expressed his opinion of your claims. They can be neatly summed up as "bullshit".

I can also, but will not because I'm not going to violate his privacy like that, post the long anger-fueled rant that resulted from his exit from INF, whose mere existence makes a mockery of your claims. Anyone else in this argument interested in it is advised to consult Rants.
Mobius wrote: And I know for sure that the other INF member you're talking about is Hippo. I also know, however, that Hippo hasn't done anything tangible to propose changes to the INF SCP plans posted by me on the internal forum. How so? He appears to be against my ideas and concepts without caring to specify why, which is strange considering that the current INF SCP plans are closely sticking to SadisticSid's one. I have read Sid's threads and also contacted him in private, which resulted in the creation of a new thread on internal in which he clarified his concepts. Oh, wait - you didn't know anything about it.
Hippo has expressed a desire to answer this himself, when he is not posting from a cellphone, so I will simply note that his has expressed the opinion that you have added things for no apparent reason or use and been singularly unhelpful in regards to how mission design is supposed to play out and then gone off because it's not the way you wanted it but couldn't bother to be specifying how you wanted it in the first place. I am not uninformed, Mobius.

And you have not proved that your actions are not responsible, or that I am wrong.

I also find it somewhat sad you decided to name names.
Mobius wrote: Sorry, but your misinformation-driven claims are going too far. I find discussing with Karajorma, who's well aware of the facts, a much more productive thing. At least I wouldn't spend half my replies trying to tell you that you just don't know what you're talking about.
You haven't even proved I had any misinformation going on here. Quite the opposite, really. You still refuse to name specific incidents or claims I've made that were actually wrong. It's just as well. Your one effort to, with Snail, backfired spectacularly.
Mobius wrote: You know, I don't give any importance to your claims for several reasons. First of all, after the comments I read elsewhere, I'm really starting to believe that the only thing you're very good at is overrating your role in this community. I have discussed the quality of your campaign reviews (many of which are offensive, and I still can't figure out how they're widely accepted. I mean, what's the point in saying "The Good: This space occasionally left blank" and then write a long and detailled list of bad - according to you, of course - things?) as well as the quality of your posts in general, and the results just don't lead me to take your own comments seriously.
I explained this once already. I'm not here to be an affirmation machine. I'm here to see that people's quality improves. The Good is only for things that were of an exceptional nature. If you produce a totally solid campaign but never rise above "solid", it'll be blank. (The review you actually refer to, however, was for a quality somewhat less than that usually; I did eventually finish the campaign and it got better, but it still didn't produce anything exceptional. This does not make it bad; it simply lacks flair.)

That is your perogative, of course. However, on the other hand, simply ignoring me on the basis of a couple of campaign reviews you didn't like is petty and stupid.
Mobius wrote: You don't have the authority to teach other people how to behave, and you're not even old enough to consider yourself able to do that. If the age your profile shows is correct, you're not an adult and therefore can't pretend to behave as one. You're behaving here as if you took this personally, even if you're one of the few people partecipating to this debate I have nothing to say about. But, if you collect incomplete info here and there and then use them to accuse me, you have to face the consequences. Posting on public boards has its pros and cons, and you should know it.
Y'know, I don't even know what age my profile is showing anymore. I just kind of assume it updates, but in this magical world of the Internet, my age is an irrevelancy anyways. (Since you're off your rocker about it, however, for the record, I'm 24.) I flatter myself to think I can produce reasonably solid logic and inferences on the subject of Non-Internet Spaceships, and others seem to agree. (Publically, no less, none of this nebulous "I gots these PMs" business.)
Mobius wrote: I'm sorry for this part of my post, but watching a non-moderator behaving that way is pretty disturbing. The others, including Karajorma and Battuta, are behaving politely regardless of the nature of the debate.

NGTM-1R, if you don't know... don't reply. And don't talk about someone else's presumed reputation if your own is not any better.
If you don't like the epic call-out, don't give me a reason.
IAR
A Numbered Existence
In The Service
Monsters
SAMAS

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Mobius wrote:And I know for sure that the other INF member you're talking about is Hippo. I also know, however, that Hippo hasn't done anything tangible to propose changes to the INF SCP plans posted by me on the internal forum. How so? He appears to be against my ideas and concepts without caring to specify why, which is strange considering that the current INF SCP plans are closely sticking to SadisticSid's one. I have read Sid's threads and also contacted him in private, which resulted in the creation of a new thread on internal in which he clarified his concepts. Oh, wait - you didn't know anything about it.
I was never intending to become involved in this. I was content with the community's self policing nature, though at some times crude, battling this one out without me. I for some time have worked silently in support of the community, letting others be the ones to stand on the soapboxes; letting others throw their weight around and defend themselves. There was no need for me to become involved in the public side of this at all.

But you dragged me in.

Do you realize the kind of spectacle you're causing Mobius? Normally, with my forum activity vastly reduced from years gone past, I enjoy receiving an email saying someone's replied to a thread I'm watching; or sent me a PM; or getting an instant message from someone who I remember growing up with through the FreeSpace community who has now, like me, grown up and become distant. These things would often bring light to my day as I walked around at work. Today was a different event. I have many friends in the community still. Some I talk to regularly, some less so. Today I was greeted by a flurry of post reply emails, PM notifications, and instant messages because this dramatic occurrence, which has drawn an audience far greater than I think you realize, suddenly had me dropped in the middle. People I have never seen a post from on HLP, people who as far as I knew haven't posted or been active in years were drawing my attention to this. Known or not, I have a large network of acquaintances through our shared communities. But this doesn't even matter, because it's not that I found out I was involved, I was actually quite amused at the sudden attention. It was only when I read what was being said that I started seeing that you truly don't get what the real problem here is, and that it was no longer my turn to sit on the sideline.

I have said very few things in relation to you. We had a brief spat in the wiki because of the drama between you and Snail, which ended without any harbored feelings on my part. I've been a member of the INF staff, albeit inactive, and never even had a discussion about just about anything with you. I have however, read a lot of your more famous posts.

I didn't have to be told "look at this guy making a fool out of himself" when I first read some of your highlights. I like bluntness, so here goes; the majority of your posts on public forums that are involved in a debate or discussion consist of you denying any opinion other than your own, a force feeding of your own views with no attempt to take a moment to honestly try and see the other opinion, and some sort of proposition that everything can be summed up in some obscure Italian proverb or word. (and honestly, I see the exact opposite in the INF forums sometimes, where you have no problems with constructive or questioning criticism or comments)

It doesn't matter if the topic isn't clear cut or black and white, but there is no such solution known as "The Mobius Opinion || The Wrong Opinion." So many people struggle with this one, but its really quite simple. I can scream in your face all day that Derek Smart owns the FreeSpace rights, but just because I might be able to say it louder than someone else doesn't make it right. You continually pull out things like "...in a PM someone...", but then never back it up. This is just the edges of the scent of a load of s###. If its true and you can't quote, or say who or why for some reason, fine, whatever. But you cant base an entire argument on something you cant tangibly display.

You also can't expect people to give a damn if you have some cultural reference which seems to make everything right in your mind. Culture is great, don't get me wrong, but by basically telling someone that all their points mean nothing because you have some word that roughly translates to "You're wrong so shut the f### up" or something similar, you're just making a bigot of yourself.

No, all the attention that forms around things you do, is caused by people in the community reacting to your comments. People don't like being flat out called wrong. People don't care if you're upset about being monkeyed. People don't care about whether you think the administration is corrupt. Nothing forces you to be there to listen to their rules.

As far as where I was dragged into this, let me set this straight. When I joined the INF team, I actively FREDded. After a little while, RL stuff came up, and I had to lessen my presence. Since, I've always kept in mind that I am still capable of working for that team. My biggest complaint, is that there is so little communication evident, and that changes occur so suddenly, both to plans, files, tables, modpacks, damn near everything, but it is extremely difficult to stay up to date. I have had plot lines of missions yanked several times, not intentionally by anyone, and not solely by you, but I haven't until recently had an opportunity to invest time in worrying about it. Being on the INF team itself is truly an honor, it remains one of my favorite releases to date. Please read the ending of my post about this.

Moving on, as my will to reply has changed from 'awake and coordinated' to 'i started typing this several hours ago and now its 3am', I want to pass this final piece on.


I have held very little in the way of grudges for you, and what you do and post day to day is your decision, not mine. However, every word you say, and everything you do is also being closely watched by many people. I will not post any of the following comments, but let me give you numbers; I received 4 PM's, 2 emails, a comment while playing an unrelated online game, a few forum posts, and a phone call about my name being dropped in this situation. I honestly didn't realize that many people cared, but apparently they do. My involvement was unnecessary, because as you would have found out had you not mentioned me, I have plans to return to FREDding since there seems to be a lacking of us. If you can put in the effort to stop being the poster child of HLP drama, I'll put in the effort of coming back to INF.


I'm now tired and 3 hours past a reasonable time to go to bed, so I'm leaving this as is.

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Kietotheworld won the thread.

No, maybe the forum.
'Memory and imagination are but one thing, which for diverse considerations, have diverse names'
¦- F R E D E N T H U S I A S T -¦

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