I think, if you're entire argument is based around forcing in stuff like this, you've pretty much lost the plot. The idea that the writers, being intimately aware of such a 'basic' story as the Illiad - or other works - would actually completely ignore and miss any similarity, then suddenly decide to inject random-ish quotes, is somewhat less plausible than drawing intentional influence and parallels.Mobius wrote:That kind of quotes can be added well after writing the plot.
It's not strange, really - adding quotes on purpose can be done at any moment to tribute a given author and/or give more importance to the work, possibly with expectable results.
Speaking of BSG (which is the main subject of the topic and going OT is not reasonable), I've always thought that its creators used a load of references on purpose only to raise the value of the final product. I'd like to mention 3 examples, all from Season 2:
1) Episode 13 - Epiphanies
President Roslin says something that, translated back into English, is like "It's interesting how, when you're a president, you don't have to provide anyone with explanations for your actions" (almost certainly, the original version is different - literal translations hardly work). If I remember well, she quoted President Adar in saying that.
The funny thing is that the phrase is a direct reference to George W. Bush, but its moral validity can also be extended to virtually any dictatorship. Strangely, however, the reference to Bush seemed to attract more attention.
2) Episode 15 - Scar
When turning back to check her six only a few seconds before being damaged by Scar itself, Kara Thrace covers a sun with one of her fingers. I read how that action is intended to be a reference to the American WWII pilot Colonel Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, leader of VMF-214. Strange, very strange, because I'm pretty sure the action of covering the Sun with a finger was very well known even near the beginning of WWI. I remember a film in which Boelcke tells the (future) Red Baron to cover the Sun with a finger (and not with the whole hand) to have a better POV.
Yet again, a reference to an American pilot seemed more appropriate. I hardly doubt the creators didn't know about Boelcke (or, more in general, to the true origins of that action) when they decided to add that reference to Boyington.
3) Episode 12 - Resurrection Ship
Lee Adama's experience in this episode is compared to that of George Gay, an American pilot who attacked a Japanese fleet before the battle of Midway (I remember a film about the event). Despite being a very specific event which doesn't have that many analogies with other war experiences, this is another attempt to raise BSG's value by adding yet another reference to an American.
That's why I think those references seem pretty ridiculous and forced attempts to give more importance to the whole show, and that's why I imagine the show's creators deciding to add quotes from the Odyssey only to "help" BSG and give more cultural importance to the show. That's the impression I have.
I shall try and be short. And fail. But bear with me peeps, please!
RE: Epiphanies - I don't get your point here. From the start, the new BSG was conceived as being inspired by 9/11 - except with the caveat that rather than looking on as the Twin Towers were being destroyed, it was like being in the Twin Towers as the world was lost. Referencing GWB is an obvious shortcut to this effect for a contemporary audience.
So I'm not sure what your point is - should we be surprised that people directly connect references to the world they live in, rather than one miles or decades away?
Or are you suggesting that better writing would be to insert an oblique reference that maybe 10% of the audience might get, rather than effectively referencing something 99% would?
RE: Scar. Now this is odd. I don't know where you get your info about the specific reference, but it's certainly not in the actual episode - it seems your entire criticism is that the writers became aware of this technique from a particular pilot who happened to be American. If they'd, I dunno, read biggles presumably they'd be exempt from criticism?
It's strange how you assume they aren't aware of the Illiad and only add quotes for, I dunno, the hell of it (because surely they can't be aware enough of the importance of the work to insert appropriate quotes yet simultaneously ignore the obvious parallels when scripting - is the suggestion that the writing process is going eeny-meeny-miny-mo through a book of famous quotes when it comes to lines?).
Yet somehow these writers must be aware of a pilot who was on the 'wrong' side of a war which the Us had a relatively peripheral role in, who is almost certainly anonymous in general culture, and who died before the US even entered said war.
RE: Resurrection Ship. This is odd. You are correct in it being a reference to a specific incident etc. Although you seem to think that because it references an American pilot it is bad. Even though it makes sense within the storyline and on a visual level, and I dare you to say it's not a fairly unique perspective for a sci-fi show.
I guess you wanted to feel aggreived that a show, written by Americans for (mostly) an American TV channel and inspired by an existing American TV show might, just might, have more than a few references more meaningful to Americans than other people. I find it a little hard to respond because I'm trying to see the logic, and insofar as I can tell it's you just desperately scrabbling for things to find fault with from a purely personal level.
Assuming they're all forced is even stranger - that the writers are aware of lots of literature, they know why it works and the good bits to 'force' a reference to, and yet somehow use none of this knowledge to write until a panicky insert-a-reference session at the end.Mobius wrote:It's not the show, it's the publicity behind it. Trying to give more value to BSG thanks to forced references is a bit strange.
Any position that assumes incompetence without evidence, is usually the sign of an incompetent mind at work.
Generally speaking, no. I would then google it, and discover it was someone adding in deliberately obscure references in order to appear as much as a smart-arse as possible.Mobius wrote:Your point? Yeah, I'm adding references, and I'm doing that on purpose. I don't do that to boost my work because it'll be quite hard to get all of the references - if I tell you that a Fenris cruiser named "Huan" engages a Cain cruiser named "Carcharoth", would you get the reference?
The difference with BSG is that they focused most of references to American people while I pick up different nationalities.
That's the thing abour references - you have to be intelligent in using them so people can understand a bit of what them mean, or you look at best an elitist prick.
