So, I was listening to the radio for about four hours last night, and discovered something truely remarkable and beyond what is "known". I found myself quite spooked by this, I found myself at the door to the questions that have been since the dawn of time: Why are we here? Who are we? What is the meaning of life? The answer to that, from the information I have collected, and from my perspective - Numbers. We all know what they are, but don't realise the significance numbers have in each of our lifes and their role in the universe.

Just to start, let's cast aside Religion here. Religion is a good, lovely thing, but it's just a fairy tale in a sense. Religion provides us with understanding, faith and control - It tells us for example, how the world and man was created. All religions have similar storys within them. AFAIK no one knows who wrote this stuff. The "author" is transparent to the world. But that's not what this topic is about. This is about numbers. Below is an example of how numbers actually play a part in our life. These are just examples, highlighted by the fact that they are well known and quite dramatic circumstances. Pay attention here.

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.

Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.

Both were shot in the head.

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.

Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.

Both were assassinated by Southerners.

Both were succeeded by Southerners.

Both successors were named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

John Wilkes Booth,was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald,was born in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.

Both names are comprised of fifteen letters Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.

Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

And here's the kicker, A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland.

A week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn Monroe.


And it doesn't end there. There are many other people, who have been highlighted in this fashion. Let's do another, take Ronald Reagan for example:

The names Ronald Wilson and Reagan each have six letters.

Reagan's house number was 666 before Nancy had it changed to 668.

On election day of 1980, 666 was the winning lottery number in both New Jersey and Maryland.

In 1984 on the Saturday after his re-election 666 was again the winning lottery number in Maryland. It was sold out making it the number with the most winners until that point in time.

In his first speech as President Reagan mentioned the number 666 as the cost in dollars that was added to new cars by government regulations.

Reagan's first budget predicted 666 billion dollars in government revenues.

Reagan's re-election campaign cost 66.6 million dollars.

Reagan's first primary victory in the California Governors race came in 6/66

Reagan's first film was the 666th film released by Hollywood.

His adopted son was rumored to have been born on a 6/6 at 6 am.

In the film "Knute Rockne All American" he played one of The Four Horsemen. (Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?)

One anagram for Ronald Wilson Reagan is "Insane Anglo Warlord."

Another anagram for Ronald Wilson Reagan is "I ran old war on Angels."



Everything above is fact. But the thing is, what significance does this have? Does this mean that unrealized reality, the possiblity of changing our future is real? Does this also mean that the future, time and destination are a predetermined outcome, that no what we do, at least for some people, the future is set in stone (except that you cannot read it)?

Over the years there have been many theories about why the universe exists. Some people say that we are a giant lab experiment, or numbers in a computer. Code numbers, like the code of a computer. I'm not enclined to go that far, but I do believe there is something amazing - And extremely fightening going on in a way we can never truely understand.

I'm not forcing a debate here, nor am I trying to force any beliefs (or force any out) on you. I'm saying, from what I've heard, that numbers are very signicant - This could mean that everyone, or at least, a select "special" few have a pinn-number, like a credit card. This number is their unique number, and if one could know these numbers - Perhaps they could unlock their future, or even make their life better.

I have no conclusion really, this topic is food for thought. When I try to reach a theory, I find myself held back. Is there a hand? That is, a hand that controls everything. Not a god, as such, but something. Anyway, here is a huge list, showing that the number 42 is also very signifcant (42' in base ten is equal to '101010' in base two).


The Earth is 42 orders of magnitude (based on powers of ten) larger than the Planck Length (in case you dont know what that is, it is the smallest length that humans have been able to measure; all below the Planck Length is impossible to measure because time and space merge, and relativity ceases to be the rule. The Planck Length is 1 x 10^-35m.)

The angle at which light reflects off of water to create a rainbow is 42 degrees.

A 42 mile per hour wind brought down the original Tacoma bridge in the state of Washington in the 1930's

Convert the letters of the word "Iron sulfide" into numbers of the alphabet. (Iron sulfide being (for the record) the true name of fools gold.) I.e:
I R O N S U L F I D E
9 18 15 14 19 21 12 6 9 4 5

Now then, Adding up the first 3 digits yields a total of 42. Adding up the next 3 digits makes 54, which is what 42 would be in base 10, if 42 was originally written as base 13 (The significance of which is widely known). Adding up the rest gets you 36, which is 42 written in base 12.

An interesting and oft-cited factoid states that when asked to choose a random number between 1 and 20, 17 is the number most often chosen.

A quick examination reveals the following:

42 = 7 * 2 * 3
17 = 7 * 2 + 3

"The Sri Yantra is drawn from nine triangles, four pointed downward and five pointed upward, thus forming 42 (6x7)[sic] triangular fragments around a central triangle. There is probably no other set of triangles which interlock with such integral perfection." from "Sacred Geometry" Lawlor R., Thames and Hudson NY,1982 p.9.

42 is the natural vibration frequency of human DNA

42 is the natural vibration frequency of white mouse DNA.

It is 4.2 light-years to the nearest star from our solar-system?

The chamber in the Cheops pyramid is exactly 42 metres over the ground

The total number of dots on a pair of dice is 42

42 is 4 tens and 2 ones. 4 is the only perfect number (the number is a perfect square AND it is the only number to have the same number of letters as the number represents) 2 squared is 4, the perfect number.

Take ANY number, square its digits, and then add them up. Do the same thing with the answer. If you keep doing this indefinitely your final answer will either be a 1, or you'll enter a loop of solutions that -culminate- with the number 42!!!!!

The Department of Mathematics at the Muenster-University are most interested in the relation between the numbers 42 and 17. Here some examples: - the 17th prime number is 59, and this is the sum of 17 and 42. - If dig(n) means the sum of the digits of n, there are numbers with dig(n)+(dig(n)+1)=n (we call them 'additive dig-numbers') and there are numbers with dig(n)*(dig(n)+1)=n (the so called 'multiplicative dig-numbers') You can show that there is only one 'additive dig-number': 17=(1+7)+((1+7)+1) You can also show that there are only four 'multiplicative dig-numbers': 12=(1+2)*((1+2)+1) 42=(4+2)*((4+2)+1) 90=(9+0)*((9+0)+1) 156=(1+5+6)*((1+5+6)+1) And you see: 42 is one of them.

42 is the number of the beast 6*6+6=42

The latest evolutionary "Missing Link" is 4.2 million years old

Water is most dense at 4.2 degrees celsius. Ice therefore floats on water, and allows marine life to survive below it.

The integer part of the square root of proton mass divided by electron mass gives 42

The element Molybdenum is vital for plant life on earth. The Atomic Number of Molybdenum is 42

5+4 (The parts from 54) = 9; 4+2 (The parts from 42) = 6 "What do you get if you multiply 6 by 9" The answer is all yours.

1932 Is the year when Ford and Arthur return to the present in "Life, the Universe..." and it's also the day that the Vogons came to the earth. Therefore: 1986 (The year of the Copyright) - 54 = 1932!!!

From Nicholas E. Scripture: 50 Mathematical Puzzles and Oddities, Faber and Faber, London,1963, p.47, chapter "Oddments in Algebra", No. 30:

The problem is:
Prove that for any value of 'n', as long as it is a whole
number, (n^7-n) must always be a multiple of 42.

4^2 = 2^4. Other than 24, this is the only non-palindromic two-digit number for which that is true

if you assign the alphabetical value of to the letters of the words: BIG BANG (or GNAB GIB) you get 2+9+7+2+1+14+7 which equals to, indeed, 42

They've found a star that has a planet circling around it for the first time. Distance to this star: 42 light-years

A grad student at UVic says that the lifetime of the universe will be 10^42 years. Note that this is the lifetime, not the age...

Propane boils at -42 C

The maximum temperature in degrees celsius a human can survive in case of a disease is (of course) 42 degrees celsius !

The REAL Hubble is (d / s) distance over speed of galaxies. As we cannot measure the speed accurately, the Constant is not known but scientists think it is betwixt 100 and 40, therefore it could be FORTY-TWO.

42 is the Number of Great Lakes areas Of Concern

If you take the number 'PI' as 3.14, and multiply the whole part (3) by the decimal part (14), 3 X 14 --> 42

The Specific heat capacity of water is 4200 J/kg oC(Jewls/Kilograms x degrees celsius)

If you drilled a hole through the Earth from one point to another, and that hole was frictionless, it would take 42 minutes for gravity to move you from you side of the tunnel to the other. That also goes for satellites orbiting the Earth with only gravity moving them.

The galaxy M84 (Messier Catalog) is 42 x 10^6 light years distant. It is an elliptical galaxy in Virgo with a diameter of 25,000 light years

Two physical constants in the universe are the speed of light and thediameter of a proton. It takes light 10 to the minus 42nd power seconds tocross the diameter of a proton.

The Earth is sometimes referred to as the third stone (or rock, if you're a Jimi Hendrix fan) from the sun. A stone (British measurement system) is 14 pounds, so we have 3 x 14 = 42

The world record in memorizing PI is quoted, from the Chicago Sun-Time, to be "over 42,000"

All dogs have a total of 42 teeth over their lifetimes

The average dormancy of an active volcano is 42 years.

The fastest speed for a land animal for 1 mile is 42mph (Guiness, page 59).

Greatest recorded distance covered by one jump of a kangaroo is 42 feet (Guiness, page 71).

The longest lava flow recorded is 42 miles (Guiness, page 129).

The worlds widest conveyor belt is 42 feet wide (Guiness, page 335).

The largest shoes ever sold were size 42 (Guiness, page 361).
A barrel contains 42 gallons.

The time it took for one person to eat an entire ox was 42 hours (Guiness, page 492)

42 occurs infinitely many times in then number PI.

When PI is rounded to the third decimal place contains the number 42
Consider the following: ( ( 1 * 2 * 3 ) - 4 + 5 ) * 6 = 42

In reverse polish notation (postfix), used on most HP calculators (and others), the expression
2 4 2 4 2 * + * +
evaluates to 42! (This, of course, is closely related to the fact that the binary number system, 101010 means 42, or that in base 4, 222 means 42).
SQRT(41*42+SQRT(41*42+SQRT(41*42+SQRT(...))))=42 where SQRT() means the 'square root' of the bracketed expression.

The Efficiency of human respiration is 42

The number of chromosomes of harvested wheat is 42

In the "Tree Information" sketch for Monty Python, the Larch (the one they show over and over again) is tree number 42.

42 in base 4 (222) is the same as in base -5 ie. 54

1 joule is equal to 4.2 calories

The following question appears in the Rhind Papyrus, which is the oldest mathematical book known and originated in Egypt in 1650 B.C.: "If a certain number, two-thirds of it, half of it, and a seventh of it are added together, the result is 97." The number, of course, is 42. (x + 2x/3 + x/2 + x/7 = 97 --> x = 42) This was derived from an 8th grade Addison-Wesley Algebra book, page 444.

42 in base 4 is 222 or 4;222. Also, if you multiply or add the digits together, you get the same thing for 42 and 222.

Hunter wrote: Lincoln/Kennedy Bit

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/linckenn.htm

Hunter wrote: I have no conclusion really, this topic is food for thought. When I try to reach a theory, I find myself held back. Is there a hand? That is, a hand that controls everything. Not a god, as such, but something. Anyway, here is a huge list, showing that the number 42 is also very signifcant (42' in base ten is equal to '101010' in base two).


The Earth is 42 orders of magnitude (based on powers of ten) larger than the Planck Length (in case you dont know what that is, it is the smallest length that humans have been able to measure; all below the Planck Length is impossible to measure because time and space merge, and relativity ceases to be the rule. The Planck Length is 1 x 10^-35m.)

Rounding, and bad rounding at that. Besides, the earth is of different diameters depending on the direction you go.

The angle at which light reflects off of water to create a rainbow is 42 degrees.

A 42 mile per hour wind brought down the original Tacoma bridge in the state of Washington in the 1930's

Erm... not sure if that's entirely relvant - other bridges have been brought down by gusts of wind other than 42 mph

Convert the letters of the word "Iron sulfide" into numbers of the alphabet. (Iron sulfide being (for the record) the true name of fools gold.) I.e:
I R O N S U L F I D E
9 18 15 14 19 21 12 6 9 4 5

Now then, Adding up the first 3 digits yields a total of 42. Adding up the next 3 digits makes 54, which is what 42 would be in base 10, if 42 was originally written as base 13 (The significance of which is widely known). Adding up the rest gets you 36, which is 42 written in base 12.

That's a lot of Arithmetic - and based on the name of Iron Sulfide? Doesn't seem particularly relevant to the meaning of life. And what about the alternative spelling, Iron Sulphide?

An interesting and oft-cited factoid states that when asked to choose a random number between 1 and 20, 17 is the number most often chosen.

A quick examination reveals the following:

42 = 7 * 2 * 3
17 = 7 * 2 + 3

Bity of a tenuous link don't you think? Surely it'd be more relevant if the most commonly chosen random number between 0 and 50 or 0 and 100 was 42?

"The Sri Yantra is drawn from nine triangles, four pointed downward and five pointed upward, thus forming 42 (6x7)[sic] triangular fragments around a central triangle. There is probably no other set of triangles which interlock with such integral perfection." from "Sacred Geometry" Lawlor R., Thames and Hudson NY,1982 p.9.

42 is the natural vibration frequency of human DNA

42 is the natural vibration frequency of white mouse DNA.

Dunno about these two, but I suspect rounding may be coming into play here.

It is 4.2 light-years to the nearest star from our solar-system?

Actually, it isn't. Proxima Centauri is 3.8 LY IIRC. People thought it was 4.2 for ages though. This is also rounding though.

The chamber in the Cheops pyramid is exactly 42 metres over the ground

The total number of dots on a pair of dice is 42

42 is 4 tens and 2 ones. 4 is the only perfect number (the number is a perfect square AND it is the only number to have the same number of letters as the number represents) 2 squared is 4, the perfect number.

The definition of the perfect number varies from culture to culture, and this is also just random arithmetic that has to do with the 4 rather than 42

Take ANY number, square its digits, and then add them up. Do the same thing with the answer. If you keep doing this indefinitely your final answer will either be a 1, or you'll enter a loop of solutions that -culminate- with the number 42!!!!!

I tried this for 63. Eventually I did get 42, but it wasn;t the culmination of any loop - it then went 16, 20, 4, 16, 37 etc.

The Department of Mathematics at the Muenster-University are most interested in the relation between the numbers 42 and 17. Here some examples: - the 17th prime number is 59, and this is the sum of 17 and 42. - If dig(n) means the sum of the digits of n, there are numbers with dig(n)+(dig(n)+1)=n (we call them 'additive dig-numbers') and there are numbers with dig(n)*(dig(n)+1)=n (the so called 'multiplicative dig-numbers') You can show that there is only one 'additive dig-number': 17=(1+7)+((1+7)+1) You can also show that there are only four 'multiplicative dig-numbers': 12=(1+2)*((1+2)+1) 42=(4+2)*((4+2)+1) 90=(9+0)*((9+0)+1) 156=(1+5+6)*((1+5+6)+1) And you see: 42 is one of them.

w00t

42 is the number of the beast 6*6+6=42

couldn't just as strong a case be made for 18 or 216, or, for that matter, 666?

The latest evolutionary "Missing Link" is 4.2 million years old

Erm... WTF? The very earliest "humans" evolved roulghly 4 million years ago, but this is an extremely vague reference don't you think? It's also convenient rounding.

Water is most dense at 4.2 degrees celsius. Ice therefore floats on water, and allows marine life to survive below it.

The integer part of the square root of proton mass divided by electron mass gives 42

The element Molybdenum is vital for plant life on earth. The Atomic Number of Molybdenum is 42

Calcium is also vital for plant life, as is boron, iron, potassium etc. etc. In fact, there're also elements with the atomic numbers 0-41 and 43-100 and something, many of which are also just as vital as molybdenum (in many cases moreso, as molybdenum is what's known as a trace nutrient, rather that a major nutrient like Nitrogen.

5+4 (The parts from 54) = 9; 4+2 (The parts from 42) = 6 "What do you get if you multiply 6 by 9" The answer is all yours.

arithmetic tricks again - there are other numbers that will probably give similar results

1932 Is the year when Ford and Arthur return to the present in "Life, the Universe..." and it's also the day that the Vogons came to the earth. Therefore: 1986 (The year of the Copyright) - 54 = 1932!!!

Possibly random chance, or jus something Douglas Adams added in deliberately.

From Nicholas E. Scripture: 50 Mathematical Puzzles and Oddities, Faber and Faber, London,1963, p.47, chapter "Oddments in Algebra", No. 30:

The problem is:
Prove that for any value of 'n', as long as it is a whole
number, (n^7-n) must always be a multiple of 42.

4^2 = 2^4. Other than 24, this is the only non-palindromic two-digit number for which that is true



if you assign the alphabetical value of to the letters of the words: BIG BANG (or GNAB GIB) you get 2+9+7+2+1+14+7 which equals to, indeed, 42

They've found a star that has a planet circling around it for the first time. Distance to this star: 42 light-years

They have, in fact, found many stars with planets around them (127 to be exact.) The very first extra solar planets were found by Alexander Wolszczan in 1994, orbiting a Pulsar approximately 3000 Lightyears away.

A grad student at UVic says that the lifetime of the universe will be 10^42 years. Note that this is the lifetime, not the age...

Nobody can be precisely certain about the universes ultimate age, since there's still fierce debate as to whether the universe is open or closed, doomed to infinite expansion or eventual contraction, etc. etc.

Propane boils at -42 C

The maximum temperature in degrees celsius a human can survive in case of a disease is (of course) 42 degrees celsius !

Biology varies incredibly from individual to individual. This is at best an average, and almost certainly heavily rounded

The REAL Hubble is (d / s) distance over speed of galaxies. As we cannot measure the speed accurately, the Constant is not known but scientists think it is betwixt 100 and 40, therefore it could be FORTY-TWO.

It could also be seventy seven. Or sixty two. Or ninety nine.

42 is the Number of Great Lakes areas Of Concern

w00t again!

If you take the number 'PI' as 3.14, and multiply the whole part (3) by the decimal part (14), 3 X 14 --> 42

3.14 is heavy rounding This no longer works at 3.141592 etc.

The Specific heat capacity of water is 4200 J/kg oC(Jewls/Kilograms x degrees celsius)

It's actually closer to 4180 - convenient rounding again.

If you drilled a hole through the Earth from one point to another, and that hole was frictionless, it would take 42 minutes for gravity to move you from you side of the tunnel to the other. That also goes for satellites orbiting the Earth with only gravity moving them.

if you drilled straight through the earth you would stop at the dead centre because gravity would be even on all sides, and would be constantly changing as you fell. This also doesn't take into account terminal velocity, which would vary from indvidual to individual. Ther terminal velocity of a skydiver is roughly 54m/s. The earth is about 12,756,000 meters wide. 12756000/54 = 236222.22 seconds, or about 3937 minutes - that's over 65 hours, without taking into account the changes in gravity as you fell.

The galaxy M84 (Messier Catalog) is 42 x 10^6 light years distant. It is an elliptical galaxy in Virgo with a diameter of 25,000 light years

Rounding

Two physical constants in the universe are the speed of light and thediameter of a proton. It takes light 10 to the minus 42nd power seconds tocross the diameter of a proton.

The Earth is sometimes referred to as the third stone (or rock, if you're a Jimi Hendrix fan) from the sun. A stone (British measurement system) is 14 pounds, so we have 3 x 14 = 42

w00t yet again!

The world record in memorizing PI is quoted, from the Chicago Sun-Time, to be "over 42,000"

Rounding

All dogs have a total of 42 teeth over their lifetimes

The average dormancy of an active volcano is 42 years.

Volcanoes are unpredictable. They could be dormant for a few years, 42 years, or millenia. Even if this number was true (wich I doubt, as we haven;t had recordings of volcanic eruptions the world over for very long, skewing the number down, an eruption tomorrow could instantly change it either way

The fastest speed for a land animal for 1 mile is 42mph (Guiness, page 59).

Greatest recorded distance covered by one jump of a kangaroo is 42 feet (Guiness, page 71).

two w00ts in a row!

The longest lava flow recorded is 42 miles (Guiness, page 129).

The worlds widest conveyor belt is 42 feet wide (Guiness, page 335).

The largest shoes ever sold were size 42 (Guiness, page 361).
A barrel contains 42 gallons.

The time it took for one person to eat an entire ox was 42 hours (Guiness, page 492)

42 occurs infinitely many times in then number PI.

When PI is rounded to the third decimal place contains the number 42

OK, lots more w00ts. These are definitely scraping the barrel.

Consider the following: ( ( 1 * 2 * 3 ) - 4 + 5 ) * 6 = 42

Arithmetic fiddling - you could find similar patterns for many other numbers.

In reverse polish notation (postfix), used on most HP calculators (and others), the expression
2 4 2 4 2 * + * +
evaluates to 42! (This, of course, is closely related to the fact that the binary number system, 101010 means 42, or that in base 4, 222 means 42).
SQRT(41*42+SQRT(41*42+SQRT(41*42+SQRT(...))))=42 where SQRT() means the 'square root' of the bracketed expression.

The Efficiency of human respiration is 42

Efficiency of respiration? What does tis refer to? Oxygen percentage w can convert? Number of breaths per minute? What?

The number of chromosomes of harvested wheat is 42

In the "Tree Information" sketch for Monty Python, the Larch (the one they show over and over again) is tree number 42.

42 in base 4 (222) is the same as in base -5 ie. 54

1 joule is equal to 4.2 calories

Still scraping the bottom of the barrel with these ones

The following question appears in the Rhind Papyrus, which is the oldest mathematical book known and originated in Egypt in 1650 B.C.: "If a certain number, two-thirds of it, half of it, and a seventh of it are added together, the result is 97." The number, of course, is 42. (x + 2x/3 + x/2 + x/7 = 97 --> x = 42) This was derived from an 8th grade Addison-Wesley Algebra book, page 444.

My maths teacher gave me these exact same sorts of questions for dozens of other numbers. I'm sure there were other questions on the paper as well.

42 in base 4 is 222 or 4;222. Also, if you multiply or add the digits together, you get the same thing for 42 and 222.

w00t!

Sorry if this was meant to be a joke BTW Hunter... but it's largely not true, rounded to fit, or just random stuff that could probably be assembled for any other number.

Oh.......... My........... God....................... That actually makes sense...


I speant about 20 minutes reading that.... How long did i take to type?!





And how did you know all that about Kennedy and Lincoln stuffs?

About fifteen minutes, the rest is source material passed down from site to site over the years.

Black Wolf, it's not a joke, nor is it intended to be taken seriously. It's just food for thought. Read between the lines. I agree, on most parts that you can take almost anything and find similarities. But, some of them are FACT, and is enough for me to be interested.

Also the Lincon/Kennedy ones have some holes. I think the Ronald Reagan one is the most interesting.

Numbers are awesome!

A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe by Michael S. Schneider is a great book to learn more about numbers. All the numbers can come out of the numer zero. Zero is a circle which is One line. The circle creates two areas being the inside and the outside of the circle. All the other numbers can be made using one and two.

Uhm, Hunter, seriously, this stuff is, as BW proved, kinda off, or more then just kinda. You know how they use some algorithms to get prophecies out of ancient texts? When someone looked long enough on Moby Dick he could get prophecies for 9/11, a bunch of great fires, earthquakes, and both world wars, IIRC.

No offence meant, but are you sure that this actually makes a point?

For me, it is no more or no less believable than religion. It's just something to think about. Some of it can be explained away, some of it disproved, while some cannot be so simply answered in truth. And truth is a three edged sword. I think the point it makes is "How", and not "Who" or "Why". That is, "How" one exists, not Why. Everything can be broken down into numbers, and tells us "How" we exist (for example, DNA).

This discussion, for me, doesn't hold much weight personally. I think it's just another form of religion, in a sense, except it's a religion of science, mathematics and facts. Religion tries to help us understand ourselves. Science is the same, except there is no magic, mystery or tales. For me, I care about neither. I believe what is, is, and what isn't, isn't. It's probably the most depressing, and lonely way of thinking. I think the reason we try to understand ourselves (be it through religion or science) is because we, as a race cannot comprehend the meaning of "Nothing". We cannot comprehend how nothing existed before the universe. We cannot comprehend without the question "Why" the universe exists. This is the same for our existence. We try to find those answers in religion and science, and so doing, we believe will help us understand ourselves.

We cannot accept that something just "exists" because it does. We try to find out how and why. You end up confused if you try thinking any other way.

Think of the chicken and the egg. But let's use something else. Let's say Language. How can language exist? You think it up? How you can think something up without language, how can one conceive a thought without language - And thus how can there be language without a thought? It's the same as the chicken and the egg. Which came first? Or did both just "appear" at the same time, like an upgrade to a software program - Here's your new software package, but there is a new patch available - You download it, and thus your software has something it didn't have before. Are we the same?

Hunter wrote:Think of the chicken and the egg. But let's use something else. Let's say Language. How can language exist? You think it up? How you can think something up without language, how can one conceive a thought without language - And thus how can there be language without a thought? It's the same as the chicken and the egg. Which came first? Or did both just "appear" at the same time, like an upgrade to a software program - Here's your new software package, but there is a new patch available - You download it, and thus your software has something it didn't have before. Are we the same?

Erm, not to bust up the whole philisophical bent of the thing too much, but both of those things can be coceived scientifically. The chicken and the Egg is a palaeontology question - hard shelled eggs were the adaptation that allowed amphibians to evolve away from the water and into reptiles. Reptiles diversified into various groups, including dinosaudrs, which eventually evolved into virds. Birds also diversified, eventually evolvng into modern chickens, but from a line of species that had been laying eggs for millions of years. And, in case you're wondering, soft shelled eggs first turned up probably in some form of invertebrate that coated it's zygote in mucus or something similar before expelling it after mating.

The relationship between thought and language is a bit harder to pin down. For one thing, we don't generally think in language as such. We only think in English when we're thinking about what we're going to say or write. Even when you consciously think a sentence to yourself without saying it aloud, you know where it's going right? You don't have to think the sentence in english before you can "vocalize" that thought in your mind, do you?

Moreover, look through the animal kingdom - among the animals there, vocalizations do have meaning. A bird sings different songs to announce its territory or attract a mate. A cat hisses at an enemy and purrs of meows at a friend. Dogs can growl and barkto be menacing, but also bark when they're playing. I'm not claiming these represent language as such, but the concept of making vocalizations to embue an idea - whether it be a shakespearean sonnet or "Get out of my tree" in birdsong, isn't something that's unique to humans. These vocalizations would have been present along humans evolutionary line and could have provided the germ of our linguistic ability.

Moreover, thought isn't unique to humans either. While we can think differently and more completely than an animal, there's a degree of thought in most higher organisms. After all, the essence of thought is descision making, and animals make descisions all the time. When your training your puppy to sit, at sme point he realizes that if he puts his body into a certain position, you'll give him the biscuit. He considers what's happened before, looks at the consequences and decides which course of action is the correct one (eg, maybe he jumped on you, sat, and rolled over. In turn, he didn't get a biscuit, then he did, then he didn't)>

Even simpler animals have to make descisions as well. A spider might have two flies in his web. He decides which one to go bite first. Yes, it's instinctual on the spiders part, and yet te choice is probably made at random, but it is a descision, and it's the germ of thought.

That was one hell of a lot of "Rounding" up there. ^_^

Also let's not forget another method of thinking is without language - It's almost a visualized thinking, but I'm not talking about dreams or fantasies. And maybe when we talk without thinking (as you say, you don't need to hear it in your mind before saying it), it comes from someplace else - Call it a third plane for lack of a better term. But as much as I'd like to, I don't believe in all that sixth sense stuff. Again, you just explained very nicely the Chicken/Egg/Thought/Language situation. But, you explained "How" this came to be, but not "Why" - I don't think "Who" factors into it, though. Maybe it does. That can't really be answered though. But discussing ideas is always nice.

Picking your brains is the point of this topic, though. Call it a "I'm bored", let's discuss a theory on the universe kind of moment.

Heh - if there's one thing I've learned from this topic, it's that you and I think very differently. When you mentioned the "Why" behind thought and language, I immediately began to think about natural selection, and enhanced coordination of pack hunting for animals capable of language, and higher thought giving problem solving abilities to certain apes over others... then I realized that to you this would be another aspect of the how rather than the why. Where you look to this otherworldly place for answers, I keep looking for scientific explainations.

Which in itself is relevant to the discussion I suppose.

And I'm allowed to round - I'm working in generalities

Well, it's all good

The egg came first... Just, not the chicken egg...

Mind, when I'm tired enough, I'll think in English. (Check the location tab, and shout at me to get my sorry ass off the net.)

Seriously communication seems indeed logical evolution to me, and nothing more. As for "why" the universe was created, I generally don't bother, but most stuff after the big bang is possible to explain with use of physical theory's. One of the more interesting things for me, is to make such a good model of reality, that you can use a fast computer(s) to recreate everything from the big bang onto some kind of evolution. It's probably a dream never to come true in my lifetime, but still a dream.

edit:
Meh, my profile is empty over here. For those that forgot, I'm from Holland, EU. (Not Holland, Michigan)

I myself figured out something that is ground breaking, although not a big as Hunter's. The time-space barrier can be breached but to do so you'd have to have a massive explosion, in space somewhere. But you'd have to be so far away from the explosion that by the time you got to the detination point, the breach in time-space would be gone.

You can actually make a universe.

Simply take a small lump of matter (doesn't matter what it is) and compress it with the energy of a whole galaxy (i'll get the figures for you). The matter will get smaller and smaller, denser and denser until suddenly is just disappears.

It has become so dense it has fell through the imaginary net of "space-time" and moved away from it.

The compression has created a LOT of energy that has just been moved out of our universe... but some of you may ask how can this little piece of matter create all the matter in the universe. Well, actually, it can. Matter is simply an extremely dense and compact form of energy.

This new universe right now is matter surrounded by energy. The energy is dumped into the matter to create more matter - because of the density of filling an entire universes worth of matter into a space 1 millimetre wide can do this. This universe is then allowed to expand because it is no longer surrounded by energy. It gradually cools, and finally atoms can form.



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By the way, this millimetre-wide universe would be about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds old (literally) and in that time one photon of light can only travel about 9.3x10^-94 mm... which if you do the math means that there would be about 9x10^93 places that would not have been visited by a single photon of light during that time.

Which also means that there would be 9x10^93 horizons of the universe you couldn't see at any time during the age of it. It also counts for our universe

You probably didn't understand any of that...