Upgrade yes or no? - or how should we release it?

Type 1
Total votes: 2 (22%)
Type 2
Total votes: 1 (11%)
Type 3
Total votes: 6 (67%)
Type 4 (No votes)
Total votes: 9

#17
the values are not really that large.

if you take note, the values in wc3+ are 'cm equivalent' (how thick would the armour be if it were made of iron)

the values in anything before are 'cm' (actual thickness)

for example,

arrow mk1 in armada has 12 cm
arrow mk2 in wc3 has 80 cm

morningstar in wc2 has 20 cm
thunderbolt in wc3 has 120 cm

you can basically see that the multiplier is about 10. relatively.

why?

because nothing would have 120 cm of armour. that's 1.2 METRES of armor... all over the surface...

and think sendibly, of you take hte left and right armour values that would be on the nose of the thunderbolt, it'd be 2.4 metres of just armor. thats wider than the nose itself.

so if you run this multiplier all over, you see it makes sense.

broadsword has 25cm. x 10 thats 250. a longbow has 300. sounds about fair. 250 vs 300.

or wou could take the longbow over 10 and say 25 vs 30.

see what i mean?

its a little wierder with the cap ships though.

compare 24 to 1000. 240 to 1000 is still 1/4 the power. not really that close. though you can say that was a design change from generation to generation. i donno.

if you dont adjust the values, but place them in the same unit of measure, they aren't that far apart. so i believe that all the ships could coexist and not be that far apart.

-scheherazade

#18
Are you saying we should make the values of the WC3 and beyond fighters in millimeters as opposed to Centimeters? I guess that makes sense to me.

Still I think the WC1 craft would be highly outclassed (as their heaviest armor is only 8 centimeters.
He who controls the past, commands the future. He who commands the future, conquers the past.
-Kane

#19
yes, the wc1 stuff would be outclassed. but there in is the fun. beating a mission with a hornet will be a real accomplishment, while with an excalibur will be 'oh anyone can do that'. it is fun to be out gunned, its the only time a game is really tense.

also, not really millimetres, but real centimetres.

i mean.

wc3 90 cm equiv ~= 9 cm real.
wc2 8 cm real = 8 cm real.

-scheherazade

#20
Maybe what we could do, is take the lightest fighter in each game (1-3), and find out how many laser shots (yes, only laser, as it was one of the few weapons featured in all the games) it takes to destroy that type of fighter. Then we could use it as a basis for shield comparison (you know, set a standard and such). It would require a lot of math, but it's an idea.
He who controls the past, commands the future. He who commands the future, conquers the past.
-Kane

#21
you could, but then it would be no fun using the older fighters. they are meant to be outclassed, so you play harder and better to do as well.

its like going in the direction of : well lets up the arrows guns till its as good as an excalibur.

they are meant to differ, one is better than the other. it makes them unique and it makes the gameplay unique when you choose to use them.

regardless what you do, any player that wants the best ship will just pick the one best ship in there, which at the wc1-wc4 era was the excalibur. so they will always be flying that one. by bringing the weaker ships into the same level of performance as the stronger ones, you'd just be taking away gameplay value for people who want to function with weaker ships, since they wouldnt be weaker anymore.

not everyone wants to stomp through a cloud of enemys, some people want to outsmart an overpowering and outnumbering enemy with a weak ship, and come out with something to brag about.

-scheherazade

#22
My idea was not to make the ships equal! Just to power them a little bit up so that they aren't killed by the first hit of the lowest weapon. Maybe 4-7 times stronger then the original value, what would still outclass the older fighters.
For example the
Hornet WC1
3/3 cm armor/shield upgrade-> 21/21 armor/shield
Arrow WC3
80/200 cm armor/shield
Laser WC3 18cm damage
You see the Hornet is still outclassed, but you won't be blown away by the first shoot! Now it takes at last 3 shoots, what is still not very much.
Even if you make the WC1 ships 10 times stronger it wouldn't be a match for a Kilrathi pilot! But if you like to fly with such an outclassed fighter, do what ever you want.
About the WC2 ships...I haven't got any data here at the moment, but I thing the should/could be powered up the same way.

#23
I wasn't saying make them equal. I was simply saying to use it as a basis. It only takes about six consecutive laser shots to kill a Hornet, while it would take about 15+ to kill an Arrow. (I'm not exaclty sure of the figures, as I don't have WC3) I was just saying maybe close the gap a bit so that the older ships aren't one shot kills by comparison (ex. give the Hornet a few more shots, like maybe 10, or lower the arrow's value or whatever, not make them equal). Notice also that I said to only use the lightest fighters of each game, and then figure out the other fighters proportionally to their original game. Naturally the older fighters would be outclassed, but I hardly think that a Raptor should be easily taken down by an Arrow. (I was just suggesting a better standard instead of trying to guess the right way to balance them, or maybe we wouldn't have to change anything at all, if the actual figures are closer than I think).
He who controls the past, commands the future. He who commands the future, conquers the past.
-Kane

#24
wc3 manual page 33

"
Penetration. Armor/shield penetration expressed in tenths of a cm (.01cm = 1 armor unit)
"

(as an aside i think it was unnecessarilly confusing for origin to put this unit system into wc3+)

thats actually 1.8 cm penetration on the laser.

remember the wc3 units are 10x of real units.

hornet has 3 cm armor (3 cm)
arrow has 90 units armor (9 cm)
laser does 18 units damage (1.8 cm)

so neither ship is destroyed with the first shot.

plus each ship has a core value, aside from armour and shields. the ship itself has to be destroyed. privateer did a good job showing this off, by letting you disable ships by taking down their cores to red, while leaving the ship alive.

-scheherazade

#25
wc3 manual page 33
"
Penetration. Armor/shield penetration expressed in tenths of a cm (.01cm = 1 armor unit)
"
(as an aside i think it was unnecessarilly confusing for origin to put this unit system into wc3+)
thats actually 1.8 cm penetration on the laser.
remember the wc3 units are 10x of real units.
hornet has 3 cm armor (3 cm)
arrow has 90 units armor (9 cm)
laser does 18 units damage (1.8 cm)
so neither ship is destroyed with the first shot.
-scheherazade
Oh I thanks for that hint, must have forgotten this...maybe I should read the Handbook again.
I always thought that it where cm not mm....
Well in that case it seams that no real upgrade is needed...maybe set the original value up to 1.5 (3 * 1.5 = 4.5)
I think that would be ok...special for players that aren't that good.
Remember in some missions its not possible to chose a ship!

#26
i think it would be a curious solution to make every ship behave within its own scope.

like when a laser is shot at a wc3 ship, it does wc3 damage, if it is shot at a wc1 ship, it does wc1 damage.

cause if i remember right, the weapons also grew more powerful.

IF you multiplied the old ships armour by (new gun strength / old guin strength) it would be basically NORMALIZING the ships to the weapons.

its still not keeping things original, but relative to the weapon powers, it would be the most representative, since it would take the same amount of lazer shots to kill a hornet as it did in wc1, and the same amount of shots to kill an arrow as in wc3. so it works out. within their own scopes, the ships would be fair. as long as they all had the same weapon powers for the given weapon type (lazer, mass driver, etc).

-scheherazade

#27
And here comes the problem for my Campain (not the entiry mod)
I use older wc1+2 ships during the WC3 timeline so we have wc3 weapons.
For the mod we could make different weapon tables for the different timelines so that there aren't any changes needed for the ships stats.
Problem with that is that we would have a WC1 pack a WC2 pack and so on, but if we make, or someone else, an all in one pack, then the ships should be upgraded, don't you think?

#28
maybe not upgraded, but damages adjusted.

have something like :

when a wc1 ship is hit by a laser, the laser does WC1 damage.

if a wc3 ship is hit by a laser, the laser does wc3 damage.

this would alleviate the need for any stat adjusting, it would all work the way it did origially.

-scheherazade

#29
We could give the ships the weapons of there timeline (WC1 ship WC1 Laser, WC3 ship WC3 laser), but we can't make a WC3 ship firing on a WC1 ship lower the output of its weapon. It would fire with its weapon and doing the damage a weapon of this typ would do.
Do you see the problem with that when we would make a all-in-one campain with the original values?

#30
so you cant modify the damage function to do a case test on era? that would be the easiest.

if not hten just pick an era's weapons, and adjust health/armour relative to that eras guns. that would be a totally fair solution.

-scheherazade
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

cron