Well, PAK FA > F-22.

It appears we are at a disagreement. Lets agree to disagree, at least until the next major conflict

Don't forget, the F-22 has stealth capability to all but the most specialized radars. If the performance of the plane is not enough, I would think that would be the trump card...

Pak Fa is going to be stealth as well

Wouldn't the Panavia Tornado be a better contemporary then the Typhoon ?

Tornado's actually more contemporary with the MiG-24/27, as I noted.

Nah, I would have said they predate the Panavia.

Properly cooked redshirts.. mmm.

F-22 > all

Sure it is highly specialized, but that is what makes it such a great interceptor

I was sad when the US govt ended their orders so suddenly after spending all of that time and money developing the F-22. I know cuts are reasonable, but simply ending the program is a little vain IMO

That specialization comes at a price not related to dollars: Usefulness.

the MiG-29 was touted on export as a multirole aircraft but the sad truth is it's got almost no real air-to-surface guided weapons capablity,

Because it was never designed to be a multirole aircraft, it was intended to be a short ranged interceptor.

Actually, I'm reasonably certain the F-22 can carry 2000lb bombs as well.

Being able to carry them and being able to use them well are two completely different things.

Alas for the YF-23.

If I can carry a bomb, I can drop a bomb. It doesn't take a dedicated bomber to hit a target with a laser-guided bomb.

Also, excuse my ignorance, but the YF-23 seems remarkable similar to the F-22.

If I can carry a bomb, I can drop a bomb. It doesn't take a dedicated bomber to hit a target with a laser-guided bomb.

Also, excuse my ignorance, but the YF-23 seems remarkable similar to the F-22.

Actually, yeah, it does, since the F-22 doesn't have the provision to do its own laser guidance. I mean sure, you can drop JDAMs and s###, but there are cheaper aircraft to do it from that don't break down en route to the target. The only time anyone's tested the F-22 for ground attack in front of the Defense Secretary the damn thing crashed.

The YF-23 would have been slightly larger, had slightly better stealth characteristics anyways, been at least no worse in the breaks-down-like-a-little-b**ch category, had a heavier payload including optional wing hardpoints like the F-35, and been intended for multirole with full integration of guided weapons options instead of trying to shoehorn it in ex post facto.

I feel the need to point out that JDAMs (at least the ones used in Operation Iraqi Freedom) don't work very well.

[...]The only time anyone's tested the F-22 for ground attack in front of the Defense Secretary the damn thing crashed.

It did? Got link?

No, but the last four approved, one of them was a replacement aircraft for that one. Most newspapers that carried the story mentioned it.

Ooh, that's nice.

So how much for two?